Dentists Who Invest

Episode 267

Why I Bought Two
Dental Practices Aged 28
During Coronavirus

Why I Bought Two Dental Practices Aged 28 During Coronavirus

Hosted By: Dr. James Martin

Dr. James: 

Fans of the Dentists Who Invest podcast. If you feel like there was one particular episode in the back catalogue in the anthology of Dentists Who Invest podcast episodes that really, really really was massively valuable to you, feel free to share that with a fellow dental colleague who’s in a similar position, so their understanding of finance can be elevated and they can hit the next level of financial success in their life. Also, as well as that, if you could take two seconds to rate and review this podcast, it would mean the world. To me, what that would mean is that it drives this podcast further in terms of reach so that more dentists across the world can be able to benefit from the knowledge contained therein. Welcome.

Dr. Jamil: 

Welcome to the Dentists who Invest podcast.

Dr. James: 

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the dentistry invest podcast. This is one I’ve been looking forward to for a while a totally unique take on practice ownership from a gentleman who is the tender age of 28 at this very moment. Is that right, jamil? I’ve got that right, haven’t I?

Dr. James: 

yeah, I’m, yeah, I’m still 28 yeah 28 and flippant humble as well, and has two dental practices under his belt, and some of us live to 50 and 60 and we never quite get around to it. So I want to know what wisdom Jamil has in his head and what he can share with the Dentist who Invest community. But before we get on to that, very nice to meet you once again, jamil. How are you today?

Dr. Jamil: 

Thank you, james. Thank you, I’m very well. James, thank you, I’m very well thank you for taking the time out to speak to me. I really appreciate it.

Dr. James: 

Oh, brother, likewise because this is your Sunday. Of course, that’s very kind and you know, whenever I spoke to you first time I spoke to you, I thought, please, jamil, let’s do a podcast together, because your story is so interesting. And this is the side of reality and dentistry that we don’t see and we didn’t see so much before Dentistry Invest came along. This is literally side of reality and dentistry that we don’t see and we didn’t see so much before dentistry invest came along. This is literally why I created the page. How inspiring is that? I mean 28, I didn’t even when I was 28, where was I mentally? I was not thinking about under practice, I was just trying to hold it together as an associate, never mind even thinking about buying a dental practice. So I’m really interested to hear myself as this podcast progresses, just quite how that came about. But you know what, jamil, it might be nice for you to do a little bit of an intro for the people who are listening, who may not have met you just yet.

Dr. Jamil: 

So, hi guys, my name is Jamil. I own two practices at the moment in South Wales. I’m predominantly based in South Wales. I’m a 2018 graduate from the University of Dundee, so they were my younger days, shall I say. So I am in the process of actually beginning works on my third practice today, later on this evening, which is going to be super exciting as well.

Dr. Jamil: 

So, um, just to give you a bit of background of when I started, when things really got going so, after my fd, I did foundation training in a place called landilo, a beautiful part of west wales. Um, my trainer was tom by south, a lovely guy taught me a lot, which I’m forever grateful for. And then I moved back to Newport, where I originally grew up my whole life. So I went. I bought my first practice in December 2019. So that’s just pre-COVID. So I took over my practice called Forest Dental there Forest Dental there At the end of 2020,. I took over another practice in an area called Herwine, that is, more towards the central belt of Wales, near Merthyr Tydfil, at the end of 2020, which, yeah, I took that over in 2020. And then I finalized my my third practice, which will be a squat practice um, I think about two months ago. We are starting work um now, so that’s going to be a bit of a slightly bigger practice.

Dr. James: 

That’s a bit about me that’s awesome, no, and that set the scene very nicely. So, fundamentally, right before we even get into the practice, am I right in saying that dentistry is something that you flipping love? Clinical dentistry is something that you love, or? And here’s the reason why this is so important because some people they use dental practices and they’re running running a business to be the. It’s a sort of sidestep doing clinical dentistry, because what it means is they can use their knowledge and spend their time doing something else which will allow them to accumulate cash without necessarily doing wet finger dentistry, and they see that as like a little bit of an escape route. Is that how you feel, or do you actually love the clinical stuff? I’m curious.

Dr. Jamil: 

So so I I genuinely believe. So I think we’ve got um a really good gift as dentists that very few people can say we can get somebody out of pain within 10 minutes. 10, 15 minutes an emergency appointment. I think dentists overlook that sometimes, and whether it might be financial, maybe they’ve done it long enough where they’ve kind of lost interest. But it’s such a good gift that we got that is very rare to come by. It’s such a good gift that we got that is very rare to come by. Well, I do emergency appointments. What extra patient or an extraction within what 10, 15 minutes? And the patients that come to you with that sort of treatment, they’re forever grateful.

Dr. Jamil: 

Everyone here listening to this podcast has had somebody that has suffered with toothache, and I know there are times where you’ve had a long day, your diary’s really busy and the receptionist slots somebody into your diary. Sometimes you get a bit annoyed, but I always ask it back to my staff. I say how would you feel if that was your mum, your dad, that was suffering with a toothache? In that case you will probably work through lunch for me to treat that patient or your mom or your dad. So I’ve always believed in emergency dental treatment. That’s one thing I love doing.

Dr. Jamil: 

I don’t enjoy cosmetic. I don’t do no bonding, no Invisalign, I just don’t like it. I’ve never done a full veneer case. Somebody has to really convince me for me to do a veneer on their mouth. I just love general dentistry and I feel like the way the industry is going at the moment myself is that a lot of dentists are branching into implants, invisalign, abc approach and there’s a huge gap in the market at the moment which nobody’s tapping into. It’s just good general dentistry. People want it, um, and I got proof in the pudding that if that’s what people want. And it just surprises me where, um, dentists are now turning away patients, maybe because of how constricted they are with their books and whatnot. But you’ll be surprised at the amount of money people spend on just really good, good, good fillings, good extractions, getting them out of pain is just surprising, to say the least.

Dr. James: 

Right, one hundred percent. So I see now. So the clinical dentistry, you loved it. The general dentistry and running a business was how you believed that, that that love was going to flourish even more, because what it meant was that you had greater impact and could share your message and had more dentists to spread what it is that you do so my whole, whole idea of being a practice owner is that, um, so I’ve done my fair share of work experience, as we’ve all had, and I would analyze dental practices when I was younger and I’d be like this could be done better, that could be done better.

Dr. Jamil: 

And I’ll tell some dentists and they’ll think, oh, what do you know? You’ve not owned a practice and one of my main goal is just to make dentistry a more competitive market in competition. At the end of the day, the more competitive an industry is, the better end product we will get for our patients. So I think that’s why that’s what maybe drives me.

Dr. James: 

I love that, and you know why. Every single time you talk to an entrepreneur and someone who’s achieved great things, from the outside looking in, they usually have this burning desire to achieve something really significant or amazing or make huge impact. And it just so happens that the business is one method, it’s, it’s, it’s like a route or a path to achieve that. It’s just the thing, the vehicle that allows them to get there, right, yeah, that’s for two things, right? Number one they have this burning desire to make this huge impact in this world. Right, and that comes straight from their heart, and they know that the business is a vehicle to do that, right? And then the second thing. The second thing, well, yeah, ties in closely with the first thing kind of summarize it there as well which is just that they see life from up here. They really want to achieve so much more than their lot. They really want to leave lasting impact on this world, and therefore business is the easiest way to do that, because what it means is is that you can generate the finances to magnify your impact on the world. Plus, also, when you generate, when you create a business, you can begin to take yourself out of the business, right. So I sense that you’re one of those people as well. You have. You’re here for a higher purpose. Real quick guys.

Dr. James: 

I’ve put together a special report for dentists, entitled the seven costly and potentially disastrous mistakes that dentists make whenever it comes to their finances. Most of the time, dentists are going through these issues and they don’t even necessarily realize that they’re happening until they have their eyes opened, and that is the purpose of this report. You can go ahead and receive your free report by heading on over to wwwdenisoninvestcom forward slash podcast report or, alternatively, you can download it using the link in the description. This report details these seven most common issues. However, most importantly, it also shows you how to fix them. I’m really looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Dr. Jamil: 

Yeah, so I just want to achieve greatness. So I see, as we all do, younger dentists, we look at Instagram and I look at somebody’s crown prep and I’m obviously like wow, that is amazing. And I don’t know, clinically wise, I don’t think I’ll. You know how some people are just amazing dentists from the get go. I don’t think I’m one of these people.

Dr. Jamil: 

I just try and do best by my patient and, at the end of the day, the main reason we wanted to own practice is just to test my ideology, see if they work. And there are some ideas that worked amazing, some ideas that haven’t worked as amazing, but it’s just leaving a positive impact on society. That’s all that matters. Um, I I don’t think I’ve ever done it for the money. Um, I personally believe that I probably could have been a lot more successful in another industry. I do have Asian parents, so obviously I had three options either a doctor, pharmacist or a dentist. I took the easiest route, but yeah, that’s where I kind of stand on how the industry is going and that’s the reason I’m mainly in the industry but I look back on myself, right, and you know what you summarized just then.

Dr. James: 

I thought in my head, before I owned a practice, I needed to be able to x, y and z, you know, have this amazing ability that I was x, y and z good at veneers and composites and all this stuff, right, and where that bar was I don’t even know where that bar was I just had to reach this hypothetical point in my mind where I’d achieved this certain level of ability that now meant that it was okay for me to go and run a business, whereas in actual reality that just doesn’t matter at all. That was a belief inside my head that limited me, you know, and that’s a very powerful thing to realize, because that’s one of the things that holds a lot of people back in business and I believe, for you, what I see in you and reading between the lines, is that was one of the things that’s enabled you to do. That is that in your head, that’s just much less of a thing than it would be for most people.

Dr. Jamil: 

Yeah, and it’s about knowing your strengths and weaknesses. So I wouldn’t, I would never feel comfortable doing a full veneer case. It’s just something I wouldn’t do. I enjoy taking teeth out. It’s just what I enjoy.

Dr. Jamil: 

But I see, the one thing that I believe in dentistry where a lot of dentists get it twisted is that dentistry is not healthcare, it’s just hospitality. If you make the patient feel great throughout the whole journey, it makes a huge impact. And yeah, there are dentists out there probably 90% of the dentists that can do a better MO amalgam than me. They can put all the cusps in, but it’s how you’ve made the patient feel. How were the reception team? How were the nurses? How easy was it to book in? How easy was it to contact us again when there was a problem? How did? Were all the prices advised correctly? Did they feel like they were being ripped off? Is a whole combination of things.

Dr. Jamil: 

The clinical dentistry part is so little it’s unbelievable. Um, and I do. Obviously there is always going to be a market for great dentists, don’t get me wrong and there’s always going to be um patients that say I don’t care if the dentist, if, even if the hospitality isn’t great, I just want great quality dentistry in my mouth. I’m not saying I don’t do great quality dentistry, don’t get that twisted, but um, it’s just about um, like that’s the whole reason. Specialists are around. Maybe somebody wants I want the best care possible and they might compromise on hospitality in that case, if that makes sense, yeah, it does, totally. Yeah, that’s what I really believe in. It’s just doing the best for the patient making the patients smile, making them laugh, having a good laugh. Nobody wants to be miserable in work. Nobody wants to deal with somebody that’s miserable. Does an amazing mom outcome or composite, and yeah, but that’s where I stand this is amazing what you’re saying, right?

Dr. James: 

because I’ve always noticed that in business as well, one of the main things that holds people back are these beliefs that I said right. And us as dentists, we attach a significantly more importance to the quality of the dentistry versus everything else. If you ask the patient what they enjoy, it’s the things that you talk about, it’s the experience. That’s one aspect of the experience, right? So this barrier, this imaginary barrier that I placed in front of myself, was that I had to hit a certain level of expertise or skill or knowledge before I was able to go to practice. It was just total BS. In fact, if I would have embraced the fact that I’d be learning both of those things how to run a business and also how to get better at dentistry concurrently, I would have been growing both those skills in tandem. That’s how I now see things, right, I’m not going to rant on too much, because this is we’re supposed to be interviewing Jamil today, of course.

Dr. Jamil: 

No, you’re right. You’re right. No, no, no, 100% You’re right. I have become by being a practice owner. My clinical sets have increased because obviously, as I grew, the larger I grew, the more treatment I would do. I wasn’t just chasing numbers, I was doing more difficult extractions and naturally, it doesn’t matter how many times I tell you to do something. You’ve just got to learn by doing it yourself.

Dr. James: 

Yeah.

Dr. Jamil: 

Somebody can give me set spend there, give me 10 hours lecture on how to take a wisdom tooth out, but it doesn’t matter. It’s about whether you need to do it. You’ll see what works and what doesn’t work, where your strength and where your weaknesses are. But that’s my own opinion absolutely.

Dr. James: 

And you know what, when I’m hearing you talk, I’m just getting a little excited and chucking these things in, and I promise I’m going to do minimal talking for the rest of the pot no, no, no it’s fine.

Dr. James: 

I want to ask you some fact-based stuff about how you went about it. Think about it like this, right any skill in the whole wide world most things are skills, if you think about it right. So running a practice is a skill, running a business is a skill. It just so happens that the only way to get that skill you can only learn so much about it from books. Are you with me? There’s not really that much literature on something so niche, so the best way to gain that knowledge is experience. You can have a mentor, which helps you, of course, and that would be very helpful, yeah, but ultimately, whether you have a mentor or not, you have to experience it to be able to learn those skills.

Dr. James: 

Right now. Here’s the thing when you spend like 20, 30 hours doing something, you learn like 60 of the stuff that you’ll ever learn in that particular skill. Right, you learn like 60 of the knowledge. The returns and how much you improve at the very start are much more than as time goes on. By the way, I just pulled 60 out of the air, yeah yeah don’t fact check that, right.

Dr. James: 

It’s not science, are you with me? But what I mean is you gain a huge level of aptitude very fast and then after that it’s tiny incremental gains, right? So if we would have just went and learned the thing and do the thing right, we’d spend those first 30 hours, get 60 of the skill and then be able to iterate it to the point where we’re extremely good at it through time, by default, right. But the issue is that most people spend three or four years thinking about that first hour and never quite getting around to it, and then eventually one day they do it, whereas they would have just done it and embraced it, and embraced the squeeze, the stretch zone, you know. Then they’d be so much better.

Dr. James: 

But there’s something about our human mammal brains that just really, really really makes us lean away from doing that stuff. And the only reason I I, you know, I’m everyone’s like that to a degree. I was like that. I now see things differently. And the reason I I, you know, I’m everyone’s like that to a degree. I was like that. I now see things differently. And the reason I say this stuff is I hope that someone feels inspired to see things in a different way, and this is the. This is the thing about business. Most of the things that hold us back from being successful in business are actually just really human things, like our comfort zone. Okay, right, like being a little, you know, deliberating excessively, etc. Etc. Etc. But anyway, listen, I’m gonna rant on. I’ve talked enough, but this stuff gets me excited. I love talking about business, okay, because I think it’s really cool and I think it can help.

Dr. Jamil: 

It’s hard like comfort zone. Taking the problem, I saw I’ve got a lot of friends I associates. I tell them, look, you just need to make the jump into being into practice ownership. The problem with being an associate you fall into that rat race of being an associate. Um, so like, for example, if you’re earning a healthy amount, let’s say arguments like you don’t want to compromise that, and then on top of that you’ve got a massive bank loan on top of your head or however you fund it. And then you’re worried how am I going to keep the lights on? And like I’m gonna have to do HR and I have to if an autoclave breaks is on me. There’s a lot of stress that comes with it. There’s no two ways about it. And maybe it’s not for everyone. Like I look at some people and that have got little children and I think, wow, that’s amazing, they’re practice owners. I don’t think I could do that. I am very particular on everything, all aspects of my business, everything. I’ve met Scott, the guy you referred to me, and I told him exactly I know my company inside out. So yeah, number one, I don’t think it’s for everyone, but if you’re that person on that line that thinks you know what I want to jump into practice ownership. Do it sooner rather than later. That’s the million-dollar shot. That’s what you need to do. You’ll figure things out.

Dr. Jamil: 

I’ve never been to one lecture. I’ve never been to any practice management nothing. I’ve learned everything myself. I’ll give you an example. I didn’t know anything about um. So in Wales we have the HIW instead of the CQC, and I didn’t have. I’ve never had anything to do with that. I’ve never had training. So I thought I asked myself what’s the best way I will learn the CMIW, cqc? What I did? I spent one evening. This is quite funny. Okay, I’m very sad. At the same time I said the best way I’m going to learn is from other people’s mistake. So there’s about I don’t know. I printed out about 400 reports from all the dental practices. So I said surely every person has a yeah, somebody’s made a mistake.

Dr. Jamil: 

So me and my nurses I think we spent two days going through it and we would look at the improvement plans, every single improvement plan, and take we’ve done this, we’ve done this. This is all checked and you realize there is a common theme within dental practices. So that’s how I learned how to deal with HIW. So then, when HIW were asking me questions, I said yeah, I know that.

Dr. Jamil: 

And so, um, that’s amazing, that’s a really good idea and I still got them and I was like this is about this much. So there’s about maybe a thousand sheets. And yeah, maybe I know the tree huggers. Are you gonna say you’ve killed loads of trees? But it’s something that I had to do to create a safe working environment and a safe environment for our patient and and I smiled to myself I mean my nurse. We were all nervous. I’ve never had hiv, but I’m just straight out of fd. I don’t know what they’re gonna ask me. So then they would ask me certain things. I was like, yeah, that’s in that folder, that’s in that folder. Most dental owners, in my opinion, they don’t have a clue where policies are within their folders, because what they do, saying I can’t be bothered with this, that’s a practice manager’s job, am I right? That’s what happens in 90 of the case. Now, what happens when your practice manager decides to leave tomorrow morning? Where is, where is this policy? Where’s your? How often are you servicing your fire alarm?

Dr. Jamil: 

nobody knows and so, in my opinion, if I could find, in my opinion, if I knew how to manage it really well myself, if I knew it inside out, it’s easy for me to audit somebody else’s work, isn’t it so? Um, anyway, the icing on the cake was when the hiv inspector looked at me. Um, at the end of it, I was like, oh my gosh, I’m so nervous. Um, they were like oh, we really assess a practice, not on how many policies you have, we really assess a practice on whether we would trust for you to treat one of our family members. And their reply was we have no doubt in trusting any recommending any of our family members to be treated by you. So that was like for me. That was the icing on. That’s my idea worked. So you don’t, in my opinion, you don’t need to go to courses. All the information is there online. Um, some people might need to.

Dr. Jamil: 

I I’m in two minds about courses myself. Okay, I know a lot of my friends are going on to these root canal courses this course, that course and I ask themselves. I ask them, if you’re not doing it, it doesn’t matter how many times somebody teaches you something you’re never going to improve. Whatever you learn, you’re going to forget in three months, am I right? Think about how many people listening to this course that have gone to a course and think, wow, I need to do this, this is a great idea. Don’t practice this skill? Be exactly the same before they went on the course.

Dr. James: 

I agree.

Dr. Jamil: 

A lot of it is a lot of it. So there are cases where, for example I’m not going to be a hypocrite, I am on an implant course at the moment. Now you can’t, really I wouldn’t feel comfortable going practicing an implant on a patient with no training. It wouldn’t sit well with the gdc anyway. So you do need some sort of fundamental training. But then I see a lot of people on them courses that go, do these courses but don’t get a case for a year. And then where does that leave them? They’re back to square one. And what they’ll do? They’ll fall into this rat race of doing more courses, more courses, more courses. Um, it’s not hard. Owning a practice, in my opinion, is really not that hard. You’ll fail at some things and you’ll win at some, but it’s if you. It’s just logic.

Dr. James: 

That’s all it is in my opinion, and I might be in a position of privilege well, I get you and you know, there’s something that you said that I wanted to touch upon, which is that we just need to be super considerate, and said that. You know there, you know, when I was speaking earlier and I was saying, yeah, just go for it. Hell, yeah, just grab the bull by the horns. Not everybody’s in a position where they can do that, and that’s fine as well.

Dr. James: 

And also another thing that you said which I just like to highlight, which is that it doesn’t always suit every single individual to own a business, and I guess the people that we’re talking to, just as you said, are the people who are on the fence and they’re like, hmm, thinking about doing this. Is it the right time? Do I know enough? Am I skilled enough? Xyz, and you’re giving insight to those people from your perspective, because you were that person. You bust through it and now you show your wisdom to help others. But anyway, like I say, what I really want to drill down into is you know that moment in time, you bought your first practice december 2019 remember 2019, just pre-covid yeah yeah, wonderful.

Dr. James: 

Okay, the months leading up to that and preceding that, what was going on in your life? What led you to make that decision?

Dr. Jamil: 

um, so I worked as an associate for a dental practice for a month, okay, and I didn’t. I really this is one thing that really bugs me to this day is that a lot of dental practices use different materials for NHS and private patients. It really really bugs me, okay. So I am in the belief that you put something into somebody’s mouth that you would want in your mouth, however, they pay, and you’d be surprised. A lot of my NHS patients, like I had a chap the other day who’s complaining to me that he’s got a £1.2 million tax bill. He’s an NHS patient, okay, is it fair that I skimp on materials for him? No, do you believe that’s fair? If I don’t, I am.

Dr. Jamil: 

I’m in that belief. If you don’t like the system, don’t do it. So I try and do. The reason why I built up such a good reputation in my area is by doing the best. Quality work doesn’t matter, irrespective of cost, and I’m speaking again in a position of privilege. Bear that in mind. Okay, I’m a practice owner. I could do as I say. If I want to use venus pill on all my nhs patients, so be it, okay. Um, but I think if, if you even do maths, even from a mathematical point of view, if you calculate the cost in difference, do you? Have you ever calculated the cost? James?

Dr. Jamil: 

the cost of materials using using venous pill on your NHS patient versus using a cheap composite. Do you know the difference?

Dr. James: 

You know what I’d be really interested to hear? It’s not something that I’ve ever calculated before £1.69.

Dr. Jamil: 

That’s when I did my research. It costs £1.69. The difference? Okay, yeah, that sounds like a lot, doesn’t it?

Dr. James: 

I said, well, uh, I suppose per yeah, if you. I mean, if you look at it like a UDA is like 30 quid. So that’s your. Well, actually hang on, a UDA is 30 quid for the practice, but then the patient pays. Yeah, I don’t know, you’ll have to tell me. On that one I’m just struggling to so basically I don’t know. You’ll have to tell me. On that one I’m just struggling to basically on every patient.

Dr. Jamil: 

It depends like how big do you always use a full capsule on each patient? Ah well, you don’t, do you? Yeah?

Dr. Jamil: 

no, you don’t so so it’s one, I’ve worked it out. It’s one pound by 69 ish, something like that. But if a patient comes back, let’s say, use cheap composite, cheap bond. If the patient comes back and that composite filling fails, how much does it cost In reputational damage? Number one, that’s the most expensive part, okay, and number two, the cost to redo. Now, venus Pearl, what is it? It’s £2.59 a capsule or something like that. Okay, you buy a few, they give you a free, few free, but if you average it, about 50 inch fat the capsule. Now, in my opinion, if a patient, my reputational damage, is the most expensive thing in dentistry, not materials, not my associates, not my nurses, not my practice reputational damage. Now, how many times have whoever’s listening to this say I went to a dentist, they did a filling and it fell off?

Dr. Jamil: 

have we heard that enough. Yeah, I know you’re gonna say to me james, but jamil, there’s a whole huge range of factors moisture control, blah blah blah. But if you try and minimize risk on everything, try and reduce your risk, surely there’s a higher chance of the filling staying in, whether it be give the associate more time, blah, blah blah what you’re saying, just to paraphrase you’re invested in goodwill yes, 100, and that’s what makes me the most amount of money in my opinion.

Dr. Jamil: 

Um. So that’s number one. So materials I I did not. So going back to your question, sorry, I’m like no, this is all very valuable.

Dr. James: 

You know your numbers as well which is great yeah.

Dr. Jamil: 

So my cost, uh, okay, let’s talk about cost. So my cost, um, scott will tell you this, my cost of materials? About 4.5 percent of my turnover, about 4.53%. We’re not going to get into the 0.03% of my annual turnover, which in reality, guys, in my opinion is nothing okay. So, by using good material, bad material is a percent okay and we use the best material. And there are times where you can not use good materials Well, like consumables, you don’t need to buy the most expensive glove.

Dr. Jamil: 

A nitrile glove is a nitrile cup, am I right? There’s not much difference in them. There’s things that, whatever I use in the patient’s mouth, I want to use the best quality. That’s simple. Whether it be anesthetic, putty, wash, amalgam, whatever I use, I try and use the best materials. Um, and whatever my associates ask for, I provide.

Dr. Jamil: 

So if they want, like um, one of my associate wanted something called sigma liquid or something, it just stops the instruments from sticking on and it costs. It’s pennies or dollar, okay, it costs, well, 30 quid. Whatever it costs, okay, um, but he said to me, he posed it to me the opposite way. He said you know the man at times, my instruments are sticking on your composite and they’re coming off. You’ll make that back within two, three months, really. So that’s what it’s all about. And if the associate or whoever the therapist or the dentist has an easier job of placing, they have more time to do the polishing, they have more time to speak about maintenance of it. So a lot of dentists are in the belief that no, why should um? I provide this to my associate. Wherever they want, they get um within reason. Now I’m not going to start buying them ridiculously priced things if it’s um, if they want a composite, whatever instruments, wherever they get it. So try and be easy, because it creates a better experience with the patient. Simple as that, doesn’t it?

Dr. James: 

I love that. I love that. Yeah, and it’s about seeing the bigger picture effectively. Yes, so many people are so focused on reducing costs that actually they’re not seeing that if they just spend a little bit more, that that money would make its way back to them in other ways, and I’m a big believer in that, huge believer in that. In fact, I actually think that that’s one of the skills that separates those from those who are OK at business, from those who are really really extremely good. The gap is being able to see that and being able to see the bigger picture. Yeah, I agree, 100 and I you see that all the time in lots of different businesses. It’s, it’s kind of like an awareness thing, almost yeah, we could.

Dr. Jamil: 

I could ramble on for hours of what I do and I want to make a little disclaimer before we continue.

Dr. Jamil: 

This is my method of doing things it might not suit everyone, so I’ll tell you where I’m at now, james, okay. So, um, because I was so busy doing the marketing, all that management, blah, blah, blah, we don’t have a practice manager in any of my practices. Um, I I slipped up a bit personally, so I was, um, I use rights myself and I’m like yeah, yeah, wherever you need, just order it. So then I thought I’m now catched up. I put loads of policies, flow charts in place of how to deal with different things.

Dr. Jamil: 

I thought you know what One thing I don’t have control over is the cost I’m paying for my materials. Okay, and I sat back and I was like nope, you know what, I’m going to make a list of all the products we use. We use 96 products, okay, in the practice. Okay, I said, you know what, I’m going to make a list and I’m going to see how much they’re charging. I’m going to do a quick online search and one thing I found straight away, believe it or not, is that I’m not going to name the distributor. Okay, they were charging me. They’re a good distributor, they’re a sales rep, really close friend of mine, really nice guy. They were charging me, on average, 20% more than I should be paying and obviously I got really annoyed.

Dr. Jamil: 

My cost of materials is about £55,456 a year. Knock 20% off that, that’s £10,000. And I don’t know about you or me, james, you’re not going to give me 10 grand, are you what? Uh, the distributor aren’t going to give me 10 grand, are they? So by simply doing that and by having a good stock flow and knowing what to order, I realized I could save myself 10 grand a year just by dedicating two hours per month and ordering stocks and just trying to find the best places to order. Now I’m saying to whoever’s listening don’t start trying to save pennies. It’s not worth it. You’re going to kill yourself. You’ll be spending three days just trying to get the best prices and you’ll confuse yourself in the whole process. So that’s where I did it. So that’s one part where I really let go and, looking back at it, I should have really sorted that out in the past. So, james, I think what we should talk about next is how I grew, what I did.

Dr. James: 

Okay, yeah, I like that and yeah, 100. I was actually going to jump in there and ask you about that specific process because even before you grew okay, I actually think there’s a question that comes before that, chronologically from what you said what caused you to be inspired to start your own practice? And that’s because you thought there’s an easy ability here to provide a higher level of service okay, for not much more money, and therefore your philosophy or model is that that makes its way back to you in goodwill and makes your business successful. Okay, so that was the moment of inspiration. Okay, that was the why. So, actually, what did you do exactly next? Like, how did you go about getting finance for the practice? What was that process? Like the very first one. And then, and then the next question for me is how did you grow it?

Dr. Jamil: 

so, um, I bought my first.

Dr. Jamil: 

I I don’t know me, looking back, maybe that wasn’t the best idea. When your twit what was? I must have been 25 when I first bought my first practice, which now, looking back, is awfully young, um. And I think the good thing about being young when you don’t have real responsibilities, you do wear it, you almost live invincible, don’t you think? Yeah, I’ll be fine, I’ll figure it out, but I didn’t, um. So I found a practice close to home, 25 minutes away from home awful, really good practice. Smallish nhs contract potential to grow.

Dr. Jamil: 

Um, so I look, I personally look for practices that I can add value on. So I obviously analyze a lot of practices that come on sale. I’m nosy, I look at all of their accounts and I have a look what’s going on with each one. There’s a few practices that I have for sale for about 1.6, 1.8 million Practice owned. I crunch numbers a lot, okay, as you could tell. Okay, I look for practices where I can get them pennies on the dollar and I can add value really quickly. Okay, I’m not really bothered by competition in my area because I believe my philosophy I can dominate that market within two years, and that is going to sound very arrogant, ok, and I apologize, but maybe it’s my maybe, maybe I’m just a bit stupid sometimes, but I just do it anyway, ok. So, yeah, I look for practices.

Dr. Jamil: 

I never, ever, offer asking price, ever, never, have never bought a practice asking price. My philosophy is it doesn’t matter how much these dental agents say, oh, this practice is EBITDA time, eight time. My belief is that a practice is only worth what somebody is willing to pay. Am I right? It doesn’t matter. I can think my practice are worth 10 million pounds tomorrow. Ok, but is there going to be anyone that buys it for 10 million? I don’t know, probably not. So I always, you always have to drop that line in, okay, whether you’re speaking to an agent, whoever you’re speaking, to say, look, this is my offer. And sometimes I do give a very low ballsy offer. And one thing I am not doing is scared of being rejected. Yeah, I don’t care if somebody says no, or somebody says no, he’s not interested. That makes me happy because then I don’t have to worry about another practice. So I always ask below asking price.

Dr. Jamil: 

So my first practice obviously I got it under a loan and thankfully, within two years, two years, three months, I ask, below asking price. Um, so my first practice obviously I got it under a loan and, thankfully, within two years two, two years, three months I cleared off the loan. Wow, um. So my debt to? Um, sorry guys, um, I know whoever’s listening. There’s a lot of numbers, a lot of business in this, but my debt to turnover ratio is is so low it’s probably less than a percent at this point, and it’s because, if you’ve got the money there, in my opinion, instead of paying so I was paying about eight grand in interest a year for these loans. I was like, why am I paying that if I’ve got the money sitting in the bank doing nothing? I might as well pay it off. Um, so, yeah, um, I saved up borrowed money from family members, paid the deposit within two years, years, I cleared it all.

Dr. Jamil: 

So my second practice, second practice I. So then, as you grow, if you have your first practice, one thing you’ll quickly have is capital within the business, yeah, and if you grow it at the right rate and you do the right things, you will have you do become a cash rich company. There’s no two ways about it. Um, and then what I did? Uh, for my second practice. Then I had more purchasing power so I could say, no, hold on, I’m not going to go down that bank route, I will pay up front, whatever the man we agree on, it almost becomes a better deal for the principal Because, yeah, they might get maybe 10% more, but what if the other buyer doesn’t get finance? Then they’ve gone through two months of headache from not getting to approve. But if somebody says, yeah, I’m just going to pay it up front, it gives you a lot more leniency. So, yes, the second practice I did buy up upfront. And another thing I do that most people don’t do I don’t buy building. Okay, they don’t make me enough money. Oh, okay, is that interesting?

Dr. James: 

yeah, it is yeah.

Dr. Jamil: 

So I always put by a by a buyout clause in my leases that I try to create a very favourable lease in the deal. So at any one point if I do want to buy it, I could buy it. The lease is out minus the rent I’ve paid.

Dr. James: 

Yeah, oh, okay.

Dr. Jamil: 

So, like a lot of people that go and buy practices, I just don’t feel like you just got to put the question out there and you’d be surprised. You’d be surprised Most people and my landlords at all my practices. They’re lovely, very nice people. They’ll do anything to help me. So I’m not really worried, but within 15 years you should have done what you’ve had to do to help me. So I’m not really worried, but within 15 years you should have done what you’ve had to do. In my opinion, most leases are 15, 25 years and another thing I don’t do is buy expensive leases. I always look. I want to be sub-thousand in each practice. So a lot of practices that come up for sale. You’ll see annual rent of 25 27 000. Have you seen it, james?

Dr. James: 

I I haven’t, you know, it’s something that I’ve never really actually looked into is, so you’ll know way more than me on this so a lot of them have like huge, um, huge rents.

Dr. Jamil: 

On top of that you’re probably buying the practice at top dollar. By the time you even make a penny you’ve got to pay 25 grand. You’ve got to pay the loan back. Let’s say, even on a 15, if you buy a practice for 1.5 million, okay, your loan plus the interest rate. Where is the interest rate? About 6%, now I don’t know what practice. 4% to 5%. Whatever you get on it, what would be your monthly payments? At least 100 grand a year. 100 grand a year. So that’s 10 grand For practice to turn over.

Dr. Jamil: 

Let’s say they show a profit to you of 300 grand, minus 120 grand that you’re going to have to repay back in loan. You’re really earning £180,000. Really, aren’t you? Yeah, are you better off not having that headache, not having that huge liability on your head? Yeah, am I right? Yeah, so that’s why I don’t buy big practices. My, my first practice I bought has two surgeries. Okay. My second practice it has two for the expansion of three. My third practice that I’m opening in three months time has four surgeries, but I’m going to open two to begin with. I like small practices. I have a lot more control over staff dentists, therapists, you just it just creates a better experience awesome, that’s cool.

Dr. James: 

So we’re proceeding very nicely chronologically along the journey now, and I suppose the next thing for me is just what you said earlier that you touched upon, which was how did you actually grow these practices then? What are your pearls and gems of wisdom on that?

Dr. Jamil: 

So number one so my first practice I took over was in the midst of COVID. I did something really good for society where I didn’t charge any patients if they needed tooth out whatever. That automatically created a lot of goodwill for me straight away. And during the midst of COVID I had a lot more time to focus on marketing, which I don’t have the luxury of anymore. So to give you some numbers to test my ideology in my first year I must have, my first year was quite a bad year, but that’s the COVID year. A year after that we grew about, I think, 170%. And then second year we grew 69%. And in the first quarter of my first financial year we’re growing about 15%. Now you’re going to ask me Jamil, cut the crap. You do it, okay, let’s go. Then let’s, let’s see how I did it.

Dr. Jamil: 

So number one thing one thing I’m not going to blow um, one thing I’m not going to lie about is that I’m good at marketing. I like I’m sorry, james, I’m going call there I like creating demand. I like creating. I can get the punters through the door. Okay, all private. I don’t, we don’t take on NHS in any of my practices. So I look for really small NHS practices. This works if you’ve got really small NHS, really small NHS contracts, so you’ve got a large one. You’re not. You’re always just going to try and funnel in NHS patients to upsell private. That’s not my business motto.

Dr. Jamil: 

Um, so what I do is google adwords. Very good at google adwords. Um, I made a lot of mistake on google adwords. I have quite a large marketing budget for google adwords. Um, approximately and I do it all myself we spend at least about three thousand pound for the both practices at the moment per month. So, marketing budget about forty, forty five thousand pound a year for both practices, which is a much okay, which is not. It is a reasonable amount. A lot of you dentists are listening to this, might be practice owners might be considering it’s not a hard skill to learn google adwords. Okay, google want you to spend money with them. Just watch loads of youtube videos, like I did, and while you go into an agent and letting them do it all you’re doing, they’ll take 25 30 monthly. That 25 30 that you’re spending with them, you could have spent on acquiring more patients, am I right? Um, good website.

Dr. Jamil: 

One thing I don’t do okay, I’m upfront, clear with my price. If there’s no from on any of my website. We is a simple rate for everything. If they have a composite fillet, if they have an extraction difficult, easy how do you define easy and simple? And in difficult extraction you can’t define it. Yeah, yeah, you might. You might be able to define surgical, non-surgical? Yeah, maybe you can differentiate your price there. But we have um easy One. Our patients pick us because we have all clear prices.

Dr. Jamil: 

Having a website On our website, on About Us. You can search it up later. But if you go to Forrest Dental and go search my name Forrest Dental, jamil Dental we don’t have our bios on Syria. Our bios are like what hidden talent do you have? What, um, who’s your inspiration? We don’t. We don’t give all that spiel. I’ve done this, I’ve done that, I’ve been trained by this.

Dr. Jamil: 

It in the reality of it, it doesn’t matter to a patient. It’s whether you come, whether the patient attends feels like you know what. I trust this guy or trust this woman to do the best quality, best job that they can do. Okay, word of mouth. I don’t believe in word of mouth. It’s too slow marketing-wise. Okay, yeah, residual, yeah, in five, ten years time it’ll work his way to grow a practice rapidly.

Dr. Jamil: 

It doesn’t work, okay. What you need to do, word of mouth should be. So, as you grow your practice, one thing you’ll find you’ll taper off. It doesn’t matter how much you spend on Google AdWords. That’s where really word of mouth comes into play. Lot of people that take like, if I said to you, james, go to hold down the road, good dentist, nice chap, nice woman, they’ll look after you and you’re the type of guy or type of patient that says take somebody’s word of mouth rather than googling. That percentage of patient is really low. Now, how often do you call one of your friends and say do you have a good plumber? What do you do? Everyone just goes online. Am I right?

Dr. Jamil: 

yeah, yeah, I totally agree, totally agree one of my things is true for any business yeah, so um, another thing that’s really helped me is not just about a patient seeing you online, it’s about building trust, okay. So another thing I do we have um in one of my practice. We’ve got about 1,300, 400-ish five-star Google reviews. So we’re five-star rated.

Dr. Jamil: 

In the other practice we’ve got about 700, 800, I don’t know that has really amplified our turnover. If you want to grow, if you’re going to listen to one thing about this collect Google reviews. Now you’re going to ask me how do you get Google reviews? Yes, how collect?

Dr. James: 

google reviews. Now you’re going to ask me how do you get google? Yes, how so?

Dr. Jamil: 

so that’s how I measure success.

Dr. Jamil: 

Okay, I measure success in um, how many reviews I have. So I set myself targets per year. So I say to them guys, so I told on my whole team and one of my practices I want to have 2000 google reviews by the end of the year. I don’t care about financials, I don’t care about how much money, what my bottom line is. That stuff is irrelevant. Okay, yes, it matters to a degree, but it just shows you’re doing the right thing by the patient. If I get another 700 five-star Google review, surely I’ve done something right. Yeah, 700 five-star Google reviews, surely I’ve done something right. Yeah, am I right?

Dr. Jamil: 

And whether you like it or not, let’s not beat around the bush the more reviews you have, the more patients will trust you. The more money you make, the higher your turnover. The higher the turnover, your fixed costs stay fixed. Your bottom line increases because in dentistry most of it is fixed. Yeah, you might have lab fees. You might have lab fees, you might have associate fees. If you’re a practice owner, you might have a bit of lab bill, you might have a bit of more material, but your cost per patient comes down substantially once you get over that curve, am I right?

Dr. Jamil: 

Um, so another thing is that I want to make you all aware is that don’t only collect google reviews. Bing, okay, which, if most people buy a windows laptop, they open up. Is it edge? Now, what is it called? Explorer, whatever it’s called, I believe. So edge, yeah, yeah, edge.

Dr. Jamil: 

One thing you’ll find is what search engine do they have? Bing, okay, bing doesn’t pull reviews from Google. Okay, bing and Google, direct competitor. They have no interest in each other. So you have to ask yourself so, juma, where does Bing pull its reviews from Two sources Facebook and Yahoo? Wow, good knowledge. Does that make sense? So, just because I have 1,500 reviews on Google, I’m losing a huge portion of patients, and let’s say they’re older. They don’t know how to change a browser to Google. They don’t use Google. I’ve lost a huge chunk of potential patients, haven’t I? Yeah, it’s huge. There you go. That’s what I do Now.

Dr. Jamil: 

I don’t do much Instagram marketing. I don’t know. It’s just the guys who’ve. I don’t do much Instagram marketing. I don’t know. It’s just the guys who’ve done it well. Fair play to them. They’ve done it well. It’s just, it’s a monopoly, isn’t it? It’s like apps on an app store. Okay, in my opinion, the guys in apps on the online app store. One thing you’ll find, james, is that the apps. There’s no medium ground on apps. Have you noticed there’s either? There’s a huge. The apps that do really well do really well. The apps that don’t do really well don’t do well at all. Yeah, I hear you, have you noticed. Yeah, yeah, notice it. You’ll see. Like, let’s say, a notepad app, is it evernote or elephant note? Whatever it is that’s marked market leading? And go see all the other note apps.

Dr. James: 

They don’t touch it yeah, yeah, no, totally, I hear you yeah and that’s why instagram’s too slow for me.

Dr. Jamil: 

In my opinion, way too I. I just don’t think it’ll work for me. It’s good for associates that want to market themselves, but it just doesn’t work for me there’s a way to summarize what you’re saying.

Dr. James: 

Yeah, this comes from gary v, and what he’s talking about is underpriced attention. Okay, it’s another way of saying it, right? So if you think about it, right, you have eyes, you have the viewers on the platform and you have the creators in the platform, right? So if you divide the viewers by the creators, you’re going to get a ratio right now, instagram’s number of viewers versus creators. Okay, that ratio is going to be way lower because, so, whenever a dentist thinks I’m going to market myself, right, they go straight to insta every single one, right? But? And google reviews to an extent as well, yeah.

Dr. James: 

However, from what you’re saying, it sounds like there’s way more people using it, or there’s way less dentists doing it properly with the google. Yeah, five-star reviews, and what that means is that it’s easier for you to get attention on there, which is ultimately the thing. Is that manifests in your turnover, right? The thing that now I I’ve obviously we’ve all heard of instagram used in that sense, google reviews most of us have heard of google reviews used in that sense. The real gem in there is what you said about bing. That’s flipping cool, yeah, cool. Did you figure out? And I actually. What did you get that from?

Dr. Jamil: 

you just figured out I just stumbled across it. So what I did? I bought a new, a new PC, and I was like because I search myself all the time just to see how I’m ranking on SEO and I opened up and I was like, damn it, this Windows PC was installed with Bing. I was like, oh my gosh, because here I am thinking I’m almighty, I’ve dominated the online market and I’m like I look and I’m like, wait, it’s not pulling my reviews. I market and I’m like I look and I’m like, wait, it’s not pulling my reviews. I was just so surprised. I was so upset that day. I still remember it. I was so upset. So I was like I went there and I made, I made. I told the girls we need to start again. So we’ve got 50 um, 50 bing um, y’all reviews. But that doesn’t sound like a lot. But if you look at my competitors, that’s a lot. I dominate the market.

Dr. James: 

It’s good, that’s that’s really clever man, that’s really really my competitors, that’s a lot. I dominate the market, that’s good. That’s really clever mate. That’s really, really, really clever and that’s really valuable for anybody who’s listening. Yeah, marketing in practice 101. Get the attention. Marketing in any business 101. Get the attention and then go from there effectively. So, yeah, man, I love it.

Dr. Jamil: 

So what I think we should talk about how about we do this, james, because we’re gonna, I’m gonna ramble on because I’m too excited, okay, so we’ll split it up. Let’s split it up to number one how did how do I get the patients? Number two, how? The middle ground, so reception team, how I’ve dealt with that bit, okay. And number three, the patient journey at the end throughout treatment and stuff like that, so that all contributes in to increasing turnover and that’s why I’ve increased my turnover so rapidly.

Dr. Jamil: 

Fair, so we talked about google reviews. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another thing you’re gonna do whoever’s listening to this you’re gonna get a facebook page and you’re gonna actually put some effort on facebook page. Okay, don’t go get a marketing guide that goes and pumps out these generic things that brush twice, two times a day, with the correct end of the toothbrush. Patients already know that. Okay, um, so we’re going to pump, we’re going to start getting good, valuable, um, good, valuable content. Don’t put generic content out there. It doesn’t work, it hasn’t worked, and that’s one thing you’ll say why don’t I get the attention I need? Okay, number, number. So, with Facebook, I’ll give you some ideas. For example, on Halloween, two of these young girls, young children, cute as hell, came in dressed in their Halloween costume. Take a picture of them and say oh, we’re treating patients on Halloween. It’s something that really touches somebody’s heart, yeah.

Dr. James: 

Yeah, we’re going to do that. Make the content real. Everybody’s using the copy-paste Gennaro stuff, right? Yeah, it’s so true. And making content real means what that actually means is just posting personal things you and the team smiling, you and the team having some fun, or just, like you said, some cool patients that visited Anyway.

Dr. Jamil: 

You’re lucky. Don’t fall into that trap where, as you can tell, james, I’m a bit OCD. I analyze all dental practices okay, I’ve analyzed hundreds and I look at their Facebook and you’ll see posts that Invisalign open day one post about Christmas opening hours, Another thing about COVID and when they were shut down. For COVID, there’s no regularities, ok, and I just think that’s so bad. A lot of the patients that are going to come and spend big dollar with you, ok, a lot of patients use Facebook rather than Instagram. Ok, if somebody wants implants, that if you. If I said to you, james, how, if somebody wants implants, are they going to go and find an implant dentist on instagram? No, they’re going to either use google or facebook or find it on facebook or from recommendations, and then they’ll go on facebook. They’ll be like oh, this chapter is google. Yeah, okay, I agree. Another thing you’re going to do all your practice owners or whoever you’re going to get a professional photographer. Okay, now, don’t start being a hero and trying to do it yourself is a waste of time. Okay, you’re going to get a professional photographer. Find somebody on facebook, somebody that’s starting off in their career. Um, they, they are. They charged about 200 pound for me. Um, don’t go searching the big guys around your area. They’re going to charge you four, five hundred pound waste of money.

Dr. Jamil: 

Anyone with an SLR can take photos. And then what you need to do? You need to block off the diary for two hours the night before. You need to debrief everyone. What shots you want, okay, so people find it more relatable. Oh, hold on, I know that receptionist always answers the phone to me, or that’s a reception that takes me in straight away. You’re more likely to get likes on it. And if you see Facebook’s I’m so excited about this, james, that’s a good time. If you see Facebook’s algorithm, what happens when one of your friends likes a post? You have nothing to do with that post. It comes up like it’ll be like um kieran has like this post. Have you seen that on facebook?

Dr. Jamil: 

yeah, yeah so why would you not capitalize on it? Yeah, it’s crazy the more likes your post gets, the more reach you have. And another thing is if you’re if any of you guys are practice owners, you need to get a Facebook like counter.

Dr. James: 

Okay.

Dr. Jamil: 

Okay, it’s about. It’s about 350 quid. Okay, it’s cool. It’s like an airport thing where somebody we made this cool mood board that says with an arrow saying, like our post and watch it flip. A patient, just like, like the post, like our page for it to flip Straight away. That page is locked into me that’s cool.

Dr. James: 

Wait. Where is that? Is that in the waiting area?

Dr. Jamil: 

yeah, can I show you. Let me see um so, james, what? I’m gonna do, and what I’m gonna do is all right. So, james, oh sorry, no no, no, it’s good.

Dr. James: 

I know you were gonna show me that little flip. You know what? I think we should save that, okay, because what you and I should do is create a live event on dentistry. Invest sometimes where people can come along and you can. You can share your screen and you can show them all of that stuff and people will see it firsthand what we mean. Jamila, I sense that you have a flipping ton of knowledge. I sense that we’re not even scratching the surface, my friend sorry I just jumped in there.

Dr. James: 

There was some other things you wanted to touch upon yeah.

Dr. Jamil: 

So, um, like, I think personally, there’s a lot that I could give my own input on individual things that might imply like, for example, google adwords we could talk about. Not everyone is right to be an associate. I think we could also touch upon about how can I market myself and as associate, what if I don’t want to be a practice owner? And I’ve got loads of little tips and tricks that you can a lot of associates can do quite cheaply, quite quickly, okay, um, so let’s go to the next phase of it, so acquiring patient. Now, when they pick up the phone, what do what? How did I learn this part? So we’ve got a few communication channels. We’ve got facebook. Okay, whatsapp business. Whatsapp business is great because a lot of you practice owners or potential practice owners might, might feel inclined to give your own number to patients, don’t? You can open up a Facebook WhatsApp with your landline number on it. So when I’ve got a difficult extraction, I tell a patient do you have WhatsApp? Just let me know how you are doing in the evening. Just WhatsApp, our landline number. So another thing. So I touched upon Facebook, whatsapp, phone. I’m going to touch about phone now and what other communication. We use this bot called Inquiry Bot doing really well, okay, so I learned like I’ll touch upon again about hospitality rather than healthcare. Okay, the person that picks up that phone is the most important person in your team. They will make or break you.

Dr. Jamil: 

Okay, now, if you doesn’t matter how good of a team member that person is, if you don’t want them to deal with one of your inquiries, or if you called as a patient and you think I don’t know if they’re the right person I would want to deal with, you need to train them. So what I did myself this is going to sound really, really, really sad, james. Okay, I apologize to all my people. I called all the Michelin-star restaurants. Well, not all of them, I called them about 10. Okay, I wanted to know how they dealt with and I thought who else would be better in hospitality than a Michelin-star restaurant? Am I right? Call them up If you guys are going to do something. Call them up if you, if you guys are going to do something, call them up and just see how amazing, how well-mannered they are on the phone. Okay, so you’ll see how softly they speak, how, how it almost feels like they can’t do enough for you on the phone how they will work around you, how they break, that they don’t have tables and to you that for that day and time, like for example, they would really say I’m really sorry, um, I’m really sorry, but we don’t have a day. But if you call up a normal restaurant, they say nope, we can’t do that time. That’s what they’ll say. Okay, um, so I learned a lot about hospitality from Michelin-style restaurants.

Dr. Jamil: 

Another tip that I’m going to give you all is that get your reception team. If somebody is experiencing toothache, they’re not going to be themselves. Ok, fun fact, they haven’t slept for 24 hours. If you haven’t slept for 24 hours, I guarantee you’re not going to be yourself. When they pick up the phone and somebody says I’m having really bad toothache, I haven’t slept all night, the first thing you need to do is say I am really sorry and I completely sympathize with the pain that you’re going through. Now let me see what I can do for you. You know that. You know that angry patient or that that upset patient. They switch straight away because it’s almost like you understand what’s going on. You sympathize with them, am I right?

Dr. James: 

yeah, I like it um so that?

Dr. Jamil: 

so the next thing is so that’s dealing with patients. We’ll go through a full segment about this, okay? Third option is getting the patient. How do you agree with the treatment plan? Do not ever sell a treatment plan ever, don’t ever force a patient to take a treatment plan.

Dr. Jamil: 

Just say these are what I would recommend you to do, and I say something that is brutal. I said, whether you like it or not, it’s not my mouth, is it? Truth be told, you need six fillings. It’s not really my mouth. It’s on you to get that treated. And I always say that I don’t mind if you go to another dentist. Don’t ever think I’ll never see you again. Wherever you do, the key thing you’re going to take out of this consultation is that you’re going to go do something about it. Maybe my prices are too expensive? Fine, okay, just go get it done. Okay, if there’s any problems, give me a call, I’ll sort it out. I’m never going to be one of these dentists. I say oh no, you’ve been to another dentist which I get in my local area.

Dr. Jamil: 

When a patient comes to me for a second opinion, that dentist refuses to see them again because they, in their opinion, they’ve changed registration or whatever. Okay, there is no registration in nhs anyway in in wales, england, um, so I don’t feel like there’s anything wrong in a patient getting a second opinion. If it was my mom and she needed six fillings and she was a bit umming and ahhing that I don’t know if I need these six fillings I would I advise my patients, go get a second opinion. In fact I go to the level where I say I will show you the x-ray, go take these x-rays to another dentist, see if they agree with me. And some patients do and I say, fine, fair enough, that’s fair. And you know when, when you build up that trust, that patient’s going to trust you once they have that course of treatment.

Dr. Jamil: 

Another thing is finance. Okay, so I don’t mind being um. Scott was a bit wild with this um, your dental agent, the guy who you’re in partnership with. So at any given point we have about 250 000 pound outstanding from our patients at any one point. Okay, and I take all the risk. Okay, so we split it up over 12 months. So you don’t need an FCA license if you split it up over 12 months, um, with 12 payments, so you can’t do it more than a year. You can’t charge interest because I’m a Muslim, I don’t really like charging interest. Um, it’s against my beliefs. Okay, I know sometimes I am a hypocrite, I do sometimes pay interest. I know I am a hypocrite in that state, but by offering that, your uptake of patients is huge. Okay, go. I use a company called go cardless. Okay, they charge a percent plus 20 P, now any finance company, james. Do you know what they charge? A percent plus 20p, now any finance company, james, do you know what they charge?

Dr. Jamil: 

no idea good question seven, eight, seven, eight percent interest free over 12 months, whatever they charge. Five to seven percent. Okay. Now the success rate on this is not 100. Is it? Every person that you apply for finance is not going to get it, is it no? So then if you calculate your true loss massive losses I know my failure rate. Do you want to know my failure rate? It’s about 1.32%. Okay, so if I’ve got £250,000 on finance, I would have bad debts of about 1.23%. Okay, so the finances cost me two percent and everyone’s getting approved finance right. But I don’t do high ticket items like, for example, if your lab bill’s huge where you’re doing 10 veneers. My cases are run-of-the-mill general dentistry. You do a filling. What is your true cost If your principal is nurses and a bit of your time In extraction? What’s the true cost? It’s not really much. Is it A bit of anaesthetic and a bit of time?

Dr. James: 

Am I right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, this is the thing, yeah.

Dr. Jamil: 

I’m really risk adverse. I hate risk, okay, yeah, so um, I, I offer 12 month finance to every single one of my patients, every single one, and I hope that they would pay enough that it covers at least my lab bill and my therapist cost and whatever. That’s what I aim to do. My cost to the business is nothing really, is it?

Dr. James: 

no, no, right, not when you do not, when you’re doing things like that. You know what, jamil, you have so much knowledge and you know what I like. I like this. I love the excitement and I love the flipping energy, bro, because you can tell you legitimately enjoy this stuff.

Dr. James: 

And this is exactly why I wanted to get you onto the podcast, because when I was talking to you beforehand, you were like james, I don’t know that much, I don’t feel like there’s a podcast in there, but I tell you what we uh, we certainly made up for that today, didn’t we? And this is the thing. And there’s, there’s even more, there’s even more to come, right, so you know what I’d love to do. I’m going to get you back on the dentistry invest podcast at some point. We’re going to talk about each one of those things that you can in more detail, because you see, these things that we’re talking about right now, there’s no book on these, there’s no manual on these, right? Yeah, this knowledge is just not out there, unless you ask the people that have done it. And when I say that, what I mean is you, because obviously you’ve been there, and this is the sort of thing that gets me really excited as well, because anyone listening to this podcast, you can literally take this stuff, rock up to work on monday and increase your revenue.

Dr. Jamil: 

Yeah and serve your higher standard so my my main aim, james, is that I’m not the best at this. Any of this. All I want to do is just create a more competitive market, so it makes it a bit more fun for me to try and create new creative ideas that will benefit the industry. That’s all, nothing more, nothing less. I don’t want to show off on my abilities or anything like that no, I get it.

Dr. James: 

No, totally humble. And here’s the thing when you share, not only do you help other people, but you actually get more back. Okay, and when you share, right, what it means is, as I say, you’re helping all of these people and more people who are actually at the very top of business and doing extremely well. You’ll find that they’re the biggest sharers. Okay, because they realize that they get that back, that openness, that trustworthiness, and also, number two, to actually implement this stuff, we have to have action as well. Are you with me? Changes two parts an idea and action. Are you with me? And by the time, you know everybody’s iterating and catching up on everybody else and the people at the top know that they just keep iterating. They’ll always have that edge. You know what I mean yeah, that’s who I think you are.

Dr. James: 

That’s who I think you are. I. I really appreciate it. I mean it’s true. It’s true, jamil. We’ve delivered so much value in this podcast episode today. This podcast has went on for an hour and 20 minutes and I usually try to keep them to about 40, so this is a mammoth podcast episode. So to anybody who’s made it this far, it will have been worth it because of all the stuff that we’ve dished out. Let’s get Jamil back on the Dentist Invest podcast another time. How does that sound, jamil?

Dr. James: 

that’s perfect thumbs up my man, nice one, jamil, awesome to chat, as always, and we shall speak again, really, really, really soon thank you if you enjoyed this podcast, please hit, follow or subscribe so you can stay up to date with information on new podcasts which are released weekly. Please also feel free to leave a positive review so others can learn about this podcast and benefit from it. I would also encourage any fans of the podcast to sign up to the free Facebook community from which the podcast originated. Please search Dentists who Invest on Facebook and hit join to become part of a community of thousands of other dentists interested in improving their finances, well-being and investing knowledge. Looking forward to seeing you on there.

Dr. James: 

Fans of the Dentists Who Invest podcast. If you feel like there was one particular episode in the back catalogue in the anthology of Dentists Who Invest podcast episodes that really, really really was massively valuable to you, feel free to share that with a fellow dental colleague who’s in a similar position, so their understanding of finance can be elevated and they can hit the next level of financial success in their life. Also, as well as that, if you could take two seconds to rate and review this podcast, it would mean the world. To me, what that would mean is that it drives this podcast further in terms of reach so that more dentists across the world can be able to benefit from the knowledge contained therein. Welcome.

Dr. Jamil: 

Welcome to the Dentists who Invest podcast.

Dr. James: 

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the dentistry invest podcast. This is one I’ve been looking forward to for a while a totally unique take on practice ownership from a gentleman who is the tender age of 28 at this very moment. Is that right, jamil? I’ve got that right, haven’t I?

Dr. James: 

yeah, I’m, yeah, I’m still 28 yeah 28 and flippant humble as well, and has two dental practices under his belt, and some of us live to 50 and 60 and we never quite get around to it. So I want to know what wisdom Jamil has in his head and what he can share with the Dentist who Invest community. But before we get on to that, very nice to meet you once again, jamil. How are you today?

Dr. Jamil: 

Thank you, james. Thank you, I’m very well. James, thank you, I’m very well thank you for taking the time out to speak to me. I really appreciate it.

Dr. James: 

Oh, brother, likewise because this is your Sunday. Of course, that’s very kind and you know, whenever I spoke to you first time I spoke to you, I thought, please, jamil, let’s do a podcast together, because your story is so interesting. And this is the side of reality and dentistry that we don’t see and we didn’t see so much before Dentistry Invest came along. This is literally side of reality and dentistry that we don’t see and we didn’t see so much before dentistry invest came along. This is literally why I created the page. How inspiring is that? I mean 28, I didn’t even when I was 28, where was I mentally? I was not thinking about under practice, I was just trying to hold it together as an associate, never mind even thinking about buying a dental practice. So I’m really interested to hear myself as this podcast progresses, just quite how that came about. But you know what, jamil, it might be nice for you to do a little bit of an intro for the people who are listening, who may not have met you just yet.

Dr. Jamil: 

So, hi guys, my name is Jamil. I own two practices at the moment in South Wales. I’m predominantly based in South Wales. I’m a 2018 graduate from the University of Dundee, so they were my younger days, shall I say. So I am in the process of actually beginning works on my third practice today, later on this evening, which is going to be super exciting as well.

Dr. Jamil: 

So, um, just to give you a bit of background of when I started, when things really got going so, after my fd, I did foundation training in a place called landilo, a beautiful part of west wales. Um, my trainer was tom by south, a lovely guy taught me a lot, which I’m forever grateful for. And then I moved back to Newport, where I originally grew up my whole life. So I went. I bought my first practice in December 2019. So that’s just pre-COVID. So I took over my practice called Forest Dental there Forest Dental there At the end of 2020,. I took over another practice in an area called Herwine, that is, more towards the central belt of Wales, near Merthyr Tydfil, at the end of 2020, which, yeah, I took that over in 2020. And then I finalized my my third practice, which will be a squat practice um, I think about two months ago. We are starting work um now, so that’s going to be a bit of a slightly bigger practice.

Dr. James: 

That’s a bit about me that’s awesome, no, and that set the scene very nicely. So, fundamentally, right before we even get into the practice, am I right in saying that dentistry is something that you flipping love? Clinical dentistry is something that you love, or? And here’s the reason why this is so important because some people they use dental practices and they’re running running a business to be the. It’s a sort of sidestep doing clinical dentistry, because what it means is they can use their knowledge and spend their time doing something else which will allow them to accumulate cash without necessarily doing wet finger dentistry, and they see that as like a little bit of an escape route. Is that how you feel, or do you actually love the clinical stuff? I’m curious.

Dr. Jamil: 

So so I I genuinely believe. So I think we’ve got um a really good gift as dentists that very few people can say we can get somebody out of pain within 10 minutes. 10, 15 minutes an emergency appointment. I think dentists overlook that sometimes, and whether it might be financial, maybe they’ve done it long enough where they’ve kind of lost interest. But it’s such a good gift that we got that is very rare to come by. It’s such a good gift that we got that is very rare to come by. Well, I do emergency appointments. What extra patient or an extraction within what 10, 15 minutes? And the patients that come to you with that sort of treatment, they’re forever grateful.

Dr. Jamil: 

Everyone here listening to this podcast has had somebody that has suffered with toothache, and I know there are times where you’ve had a long day, your diary’s really busy and the receptionist slots somebody into your diary. Sometimes you get a bit annoyed, but I always ask it back to my staff. I say how would you feel if that was your mum, your dad, that was suffering with a toothache? In that case you will probably work through lunch for me to treat that patient or your mom or your dad. So I’ve always believed in emergency dental treatment. That’s one thing I love doing.

Dr. Jamil: 

I don’t enjoy cosmetic. I don’t do no bonding, no Invisalign, I just don’t like it. I’ve never done a full veneer case. Somebody has to really convince me for me to do a veneer on their mouth. I just love general dentistry and I feel like the way the industry is going at the moment myself is that a lot of dentists are branching into implants, invisalign, abc approach and there’s a huge gap in the market at the moment which nobody’s tapping into. It’s just good general dentistry. People want it, um, and I got proof in the pudding that if that’s what people want. And it just surprises me where, um, dentists are now turning away patients, maybe because of how constricted they are with their books and whatnot. But you’ll be surprised at the amount of money people spend on just really good, good, good fillings, good extractions, getting them out of pain is just surprising, to say the least.

Dr. James: 

Right, one hundred percent. So I see now. So the clinical dentistry, you loved it. The general dentistry and running a business was how you believed that, that that love was going to flourish even more, because what it meant was that you had greater impact and could share your message and had more dentists to spread what it is that you do so my whole, whole idea of being a practice owner is that, um, so I’ve done my fair share of work experience, as we’ve all had, and I would analyze dental practices when I was younger and I’d be like this could be done better, that could be done better.

Dr. Jamil: 

And I’ll tell some dentists and they’ll think, oh, what do you know? You’ve not owned a practice and one of my main goal is just to make dentistry a more competitive market in competition. At the end of the day, the more competitive an industry is, the better end product we will get for our patients. So I think that’s why that’s what maybe drives me.

Dr. James: 

I love that, and you know why. Every single time you talk to an entrepreneur and someone who’s achieved great things, from the outside looking in, they usually have this burning desire to achieve something really significant or amazing or make huge impact. And it just so happens that the business is one method, it’s, it’s, it’s like a route or a path to achieve that. It’s just the thing, the vehicle that allows them to get there, right, yeah, that’s for two things, right? Number one they have this burning desire to make this huge impact in this world. Right, and that comes straight from their heart, and they know that the business is a vehicle to do that, right? And then the second thing. The second thing, well, yeah, ties in closely with the first thing kind of summarize it there as well which is just that they see life from up here. They really want to achieve so much more than their lot. They really want to leave lasting impact on this world, and therefore business is the easiest way to do that, because what it means is is that you can generate the finances to magnify your impact on the world. Plus, also, when you generate, when you create a business, you can begin to take yourself out of the business, right. So I sense that you’re one of those people as well. You have. You’re here for a higher purpose. Real quick guys.

Dr. James: 

I’ve put together a special report for dentists, entitled the seven costly and potentially disastrous mistakes that dentists make whenever it comes to their finances. Most of the time, dentists are going through these issues and they don’t even necessarily realize that they’re happening until they have their eyes opened, and that is the purpose of this report. You can go ahead and receive your free report by heading on over to wwwdenisoninvestcom forward slash podcast report or, alternatively, you can download it using the link in the description. This report details these seven most common issues. However, most importantly, it also shows you how to fix them. I’m really looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Dr. Jamil: 

Yeah, so I just want to achieve greatness. So I see, as we all do, younger dentists, we look at Instagram and I look at somebody’s crown prep and I’m obviously like wow, that is amazing. And I don’t know, clinically wise, I don’t think I’ll. You know how some people are just amazing dentists from the get go. I don’t think I’m one of these people.

Dr. Jamil: 

I just try and do best by my patient and, at the end of the day, the main reason we wanted to own practice is just to test my ideology, see if they work. And there are some ideas that worked amazing, some ideas that haven’t worked as amazing, but it’s just leaving a positive impact on society. That’s all that matters. Um, I I don’t think I’ve ever done it for the money. Um, I personally believe that I probably could have been a lot more successful in another industry. I do have Asian parents, so obviously I had three options either a doctor, pharmacist or a dentist. I took the easiest route, but yeah, that’s where I kind of stand on how the industry is going and that’s the reason I’m mainly in the industry but I look back on myself, right, and you know what you summarized just then.

Dr. James: 

I thought in my head, before I owned a practice, I needed to be able to x, y and z, you know, have this amazing ability that I was x, y and z good at veneers and composites and all this stuff, right, and where that bar was I don’t even know where that bar was I just had to reach this hypothetical point in my mind where I’d achieved this certain level of ability that now meant that it was okay for me to go and run a business, whereas in actual reality that just doesn’t matter at all. That was a belief inside my head that limited me, you know, and that’s a very powerful thing to realize, because that’s one of the things that holds a lot of people back in business and I believe, for you, what I see in you and reading between the lines, is that was one of the things that’s enabled you to do. That is that in your head, that’s just much less of a thing than it would be for most people.

Dr. Jamil: 

Yeah, and it’s about knowing your strengths and weaknesses. So I wouldn’t, I would never feel comfortable doing a full veneer case. It’s just something I wouldn’t do. I enjoy taking teeth out. It’s just what I enjoy.

Dr. Jamil: 

But I see, the one thing that I believe in dentistry where a lot of dentists get it twisted is that dentistry is not healthcare, it’s just hospitality. If you make the patient feel great throughout the whole journey, it makes a huge impact. And yeah, there are dentists out there probably 90% of the dentists that can do a better MO amalgam than me. They can put all the cusps in, but it’s how you’ve made the patient feel. How were the reception team? How were the nurses? How easy was it to book in? How easy was it to contact us again when there was a problem? How did? Were all the prices advised correctly? Did they feel like they were being ripped off? Is a whole combination of things.

Dr. Jamil: 

The clinical dentistry part is so little it’s unbelievable. Um, and I do. Obviously there is always going to be a market for great dentists, don’t get me wrong and there’s always going to be um patients that say I don’t care if the dentist, if, even if the hospitality isn’t great, I just want great quality dentistry in my mouth. I’m not saying I don’t do great quality dentistry, don’t get that twisted, but um, it’s just about um, like that’s the whole reason. Specialists are around. Maybe somebody wants I want the best care possible and they might compromise on hospitality in that case, if that makes sense, yeah, it does, totally. Yeah, that’s what I really believe in. It’s just doing the best for the patient making the patients smile, making them laugh, having a good laugh. Nobody wants to be miserable in work. Nobody wants to deal with somebody that’s miserable. Does an amazing mom outcome or composite, and yeah, but that’s where I stand this is amazing what you’re saying, right?

Dr. James: 

because I’ve always noticed that in business as well, one of the main things that holds people back are these beliefs that I said right. And us as dentists, we attach a significantly more importance to the quality of the dentistry versus everything else. If you ask the patient what they enjoy, it’s the things that you talk about, it’s the experience. That’s one aspect of the experience, right? So this barrier, this imaginary barrier that I placed in front of myself, was that I had to hit a certain level of expertise or skill or knowledge before I was able to go to practice. It was just total BS. In fact, if I would have embraced the fact that I’d be learning both of those things how to run a business and also how to get better at dentistry concurrently, I would have been growing both those skills in tandem. That’s how I now see things, right, I’m not going to rant on too much, because this is we’re supposed to be interviewing Jamil today, of course.

Dr. Jamil: 

No, you’re right. You’re right. No, no, no, 100% You’re right. I have become by being a practice owner. My clinical sets have increased because obviously, as I grew, the larger I grew, the more treatment I would do. I wasn’t just chasing numbers, I was doing more difficult extractions and naturally, it doesn’t matter how many times I tell you to do something. You’ve just got to learn by doing it yourself.

Dr. James: 

Yeah.

Dr. Jamil: 

Somebody can give me set spend there, give me 10 hours lecture on how to take a wisdom tooth out, but it doesn’t matter. It’s about whether you need to do it. You’ll see what works and what doesn’t work, where your strength and where your weaknesses are. But that’s my own opinion absolutely.

Dr. James: 

And you know what, when I’m hearing you talk, I’m just getting a little excited and chucking these things in, and I promise I’m going to do minimal talking for the rest of the pot no, no, no it’s fine.

Dr. James: 

I want to ask you some fact-based stuff about how you went about it. Think about it like this, right any skill in the whole wide world most things are skills, if you think about it right. So running a practice is a skill, running a business is a skill. It just so happens that the only way to get that skill you can only learn so much about it from books. Are you with me? There’s not really that much literature on something so niche, so the best way to gain that knowledge is experience. You can have a mentor, which helps you, of course, and that would be very helpful, yeah, but ultimately, whether you have a mentor or not, you have to experience it to be able to learn those skills.

Dr. James: 

Right now. Here’s the thing when you spend like 20, 30 hours doing something, you learn like 60 of the stuff that you’ll ever learn in that particular skill. Right, you learn like 60 of the knowledge. The returns and how much you improve at the very start are much more than as time goes on. By the way, I just pulled 60 out of the air, yeah yeah don’t fact check that, right.

Dr. James: 

It’s not science, are you with me? But what I mean is you gain a huge level of aptitude very fast and then after that it’s tiny incremental gains, right? So if we would have just went and learned the thing and do the thing right, we’d spend those first 30 hours, get 60 of the skill and then be able to iterate it to the point where we’re extremely good at it through time, by default, right. But the issue is that most people spend three or four years thinking about that first hour and never quite getting around to it, and then eventually one day they do it, whereas they would have just done it and embraced it, and embraced the squeeze, the stretch zone, you know. Then they’d be so much better.

Dr. James: 

But there’s something about our human mammal brains that just really, really really makes us lean away from doing that stuff. And the only reason I I, you know, I’m everyone’s like that to a degree. I was like that. I now see things differently. And the reason I I, you know, I’m everyone’s like that to a degree. I was like that. I now see things differently. And the reason I say this stuff is I hope that someone feels inspired to see things in a different way, and this is the. This is the thing about business. Most of the things that hold us back from being successful in business are actually just really human things, like our comfort zone. Okay, right, like being a little, you know, deliberating excessively, etc. Etc. Etc. But anyway, listen, I’m gonna rant on. I’ve talked enough, but this stuff gets me excited. I love talking about business, okay, because I think it’s really cool and I think it can help.

Dr. Jamil: 

It’s hard like comfort zone. Taking the problem, I saw I’ve got a lot of friends I associates. I tell them, look, you just need to make the jump into being into practice ownership. The problem with being an associate you fall into that rat race of being an associate. Um, so like, for example, if you’re earning a healthy amount, let’s say arguments like you don’t want to compromise that, and then on top of that you’ve got a massive bank loan on top of your head or however you fund it. And then you’re worried how am I going to keep the lights on? And like I’m gonna have to do HR and I have to if an autoclave breaks is on me. There’s a lot of stress that comes with it. There’s no two ways about it. And maybe it’s not for everyone. Like I look at some people and that have got little children and I think, wow, that’s amazing, they’re practice owners. I don’t think I could do that. I am very particular on everything, all aspects of my business, everything. I’ve met Scott, the guy you referred to me, and I told him exactly I know my company inside out. So yeah, number one, I don’t think it’s for everyone, but if you’re that person on that line that thinks you know what I want to jump into practice ownership. Do it sooner rather than later. That’s the million-dollar shot. That’s what you need to do. You’ll figure things out.

Dr. Jamil: 

I’ve never been to one lecture. I’ve never been to any practice management nothing. I’ve learned everything myself. I’ll give you an example. I didn’t know anything about um. So in Wales we have the HIW instead of the CQC, and I didn’t have. I’ve never had anything to do with that. I’ve never had training. So I thought I asked myself what’s the best way I will learn the CMIW, cqc? What I did? I spent one evening. This is quite funny. Okay, I’m very sad. At the same time I said the best way I’m going to learn is from other people’s mistake. So there’s about I don’t know. I printed out about 400 reports from all the dental practices. So I said surely every person has a yeah, somebody’s made a mistake.

Dr. Jamil: 

So me and my nurses I think we spent two days going through it and we would look at the improvement plans, every single improvement plan, and take we’ve done this, we’ve done this. This is all checked and you realize there is a common theme within dental practices. So that’s how I learned how to deal with HIW. So then, when HIW were asking me questions, I said yeah, I know that.

Dr. Jamil: 

And so, um, that’s amazing, that’s a really good idea and I still got them and I was like this is about this much. So there’s about maybe a thousand sheets. And yeah, maybe I know the tree huggers. Are you gonna say you’ve killed loads of trees? But it’s something that I had to do to create a safe working environment and a safe environment for our patient and and I smiled to myself I mean my nurse. We were all nervous. I’ve never had hiv, but I’m just straight out of fd. I don’t know what they’re gonna ask me. So then they would ask me certain things. I was like, yeah, that’s in that folder, that’s in that folder. Most dental owners, in my opinion, they don’t have a clue where policies are within their folders, because what they do, saying I can’t be bothered with this, that’s a practice manager’s job, am I right? That’s what happens in 90 of the case. Now, what happens when your practice manager decides to leave tomorrow morning? Where is, where is this policy? Where’s your? How often are you servicing your fire alarm?

Dr. Jamil: 

nobody knows and so, in my opinion, if I could find, in my opinion, if I knew how to manage it really well myself, if I knew it inside out, it’s easy for me to audit somebody else’s work, isn’t it so? Um, anyway, the icing on the cake was when the hiv inspector looked at me. Um, at the end of it, I was like, oh my gosh, I’m so nervous. Um, they were like oh, we really assess a practice, not on how many policies you have, we really assess a practice on whether we would trust for you to treat one of our family members. And their reply was we have no doubt in trusting any recommending any of our family members to be treated by you. So that was like for me. That was the icing on. That’s my idea worked. So you don’t, in my opinion, you don’t need to go to courses. All the information is there online. Um, some people might need to.

Dr. Jamil: 

I I’m in two minds about courses myself. Okay, I know a lot of my friends are going on to these root canal courses this course, that course and I ask themselves. I ask them, if you’re not doing it, it doesn’t matter how many times somebody teaches you something you’re never going to improve. Whatever you learn, you’re going to forget in three months, am I right? Think about how many people listening to this course that have gone to a course and think, wow, I need to do this, this is a great idea. Don’t practice this skill? Be exactly the same before they went on the course.

Dr. James: 

I agree.

Dr. Jamil: 

A lot of it is a lot of it. So there are cases where, for example I’m not going to be a hypocrite, I am on an implant course at the moment. Now you can’t, really I wouldn’t feel comfortable going practicing an implant on a patient with no training. It wouldn’t sit well with the gdc anyway. So you do need some sort of fundamental training. But then I see a lot of people on them courses that go, do these courses but don’t get a case for a year. And then where does that leave them? They’re back to square one. And what they’ll do? They’ll fall into this rat race of doing more courses, more courses, more courses. Um, it’s not hard. Owning a practice, in my opinion, is really not that hard. You’ll fail at some things and you’ll win at some, but it’s if you. It’s just logic.

Dr. James: 

That’s all it is in my opinion, and I might be in a position of privilege well, I get you and you know, there’s something that you said that I wanted to touch upon, which is that we just need to be super considerate, and said that. You know there, you know, when I was speaking earlier and I was saying, yeah, just go for it. Hell, yeah, just grab the bull by the horns. Not everybody’s in a position where they can do that, and that’s fine as well.

Dr. James: 

And also another thing that you said which I just like to highlight, which is that it doesn’t always suit every single individual to own a business, and I guess the people that we’re talking to, just as you said, are the people who are on the fence and they’re like, hmm, thinking about doing this. Is it the right time? Do I know enough? Am I skilled enough? Xyz, and you’re giving insight to those people from your perspective, because you were that person. You bust through it and now you show your wisdom to help others. But anyway, like I say, what I really want to drill down into is you know that moment in time, you bought your first practice december 2019 remember 2019, just pre-covid yeah yeah, wonderful.

Dr. James: 

Okay, the months leading up to that and preceding that, what was going on in your life? What led you to make that decision?

Dr. Jamil: 

um, so I worked as an associate for a dental practice for a month, okay, and I didn’t. I really this is one thing that really bugs me to this day is that a lot of dental practices use different materials for NHS and private patients. It really really bugs me, okay. So I am in the belief that you put something into somebody’s mouth that you would want in your mouth, however, they pay, and you’d be surprised. A lot of my NHS patients, like I had a chap the other day who’s complaining to me that he’s got a £1.2 million tax bill. He’s an NHS patient, okay, is it fair that I skimp on materials for him? No, do you believe that’s fair? If I don’t, I am.

Dr. Jamil: 

I’m in that belief. If you don’t like the system, don’t do it. So I try and do. The reason why I built up such a good reputation in my area is by doing the best. Quality work doesn’t matter, irrespective of cost, and I’m speaking again in a position of privilege. Bear that in mind. Okay, I’m a practice owner. I could do as I say. If I want to use venus pill on all my nhs patients, so be it, okay. Um, but I think if, if you even do maths, even from a mathematical point of view, if you calculate the cost in difference, do you? Have you ever calculated the cost? James?

Dr. Jamil: 

the cost of materials using using venous pill on your NHS patient versus using a cheap composite. Do you know the difference?

Dr. James: 

You know what I’d be really interested to hear? It’s not something that I’ve ever calculated before £1.69.

Dr. Jamil: 

That’s when I did my research. It costs £1.69. The difference? Okay, yeah, that sounds like a lot, doesn’t it?

Dr. James: 

I said, well, uh, I suppose per yeah, if you. I mean, if you look at it like a UDA is like 30 quid. So that’s your. Well, actually hang on, a UDA is 30 quid for the practice, but then the patient pays. Yeah, I don’t know, you’ll have to tell me. On that one I’m just struggling to so basically I don’t know. You’ll have to tell me. On that one I’m just struggling to basically on every patient.

Dr. Jamil: 

It depends like how big do you always use a full capsule on each patient? Ah well, you don’t, do you? Yeah?

Dr. Jamil: 

no, you don’t so so it’s one, I’ve worked it out. It’s one pound by 69 ish, something like that. But if a patient comes back, let’s say, use cheap composite, cheap bond. If the patient comes back and that composite filling fails, how much does it cost In reputational damage? Number one, that’s the most expensive part, okay, and number two, the cost to redo. Now, venus Pearl, what is it? It’s £2.59 a capsule or something like that. Okay, you buy a few, they give you a free, few free, but if you average it, about 50 inch fat the capsule. Now, in my opinion, if a patient, my reputational damage, is the most expensive thing in dentistry, not materials, not my associates, not my nurses, not my practice reputational damage. Now, how many times have whoever’s listening to this say I went to a dentist, they did a filling and it fell off?

Dr. Jamil: 

have we heard that enough. Yeah, I know you’re gonna say to me james, but jamil, there’s a whole huge range of factors moisture control, blah blah blah. But if you try and minimize risk on everything, try and reduce your risk, surely there’s a higher chance of the filling staying in, whether it be give the associate more time, blah, blah blah what you’re saying, just to paraphrase you’re invested in goodwill yes, 100, and that’s what makes me the most amount of money in my opinion.

Dr. Jamil: 

Um. So that’s number one. So materials I I did not. So going back to your question, sorry, I’m like no, this is all very valuable.

Dr. James: 

You know your numbers as well which is great yeah.

Dr. Jamil: 

So my cost, uh, okay, let’s talk about cost. So my cost, um, scott will tell you this, my cost of materials? About 4.5 percent of my turnover, about 4.53%. We’re not going to get into the 0.03% of my annual turnover, which in reality, guys, in my opinion is nothing okay. So, by using good material, bad material is a percent okay and we use the best material. And there are times where you can not use good materials Well, like consumables, you don’t need to buy the most expensive glove.

Dr. Jamil: 

A nitrile glove is a nitrile cup, am I right? There’s not much difference in them. There’s things that, whatever I use in the patient’s mouth, I want to use the best quality. That’s simple. Whether it be anesthetic, putty, wash, amalgam, whatever I use, I try and use the best materials. Um, and whatever my associates ask for, I provide.

Dr. Jamil: 

So if they want, like um, one of my associate wanted something called sigma liquid or something, it just stops the instruments from sticking on and it costs. It’s pennies or dollar, okay, it costs, well, 30 quid. Whatever it costs, okay, um, but he said to me, he posed it to me the opposite way. He said you know the man at times, my instruments are sticking on your composite and they’re coming off. You’ll make that back within two, three months, really. So that’s what it’s all about. And if the associate or whoever the therapist or the dentist has an easier job of placing, they have more time to do the polishing, they have more time to speak about maintenance of it. So a lot of dentists are in the belief that no, why should um? I provide this to my associate. Wherever they want, they get um within reason. Now I’m not going to start buying them ridiculously priced things if it’s um, if they want a composite, whatever instruments, wherever they get it. So try and be easy, because it creates a better experience with the patient. Simple as that, doesn’t it?

Dr. James: 

I love that. I love that. Yeah, and it’s about seeing the bigger picture effectively. Yes, so many people are so focused on reducing costs that actually they’re not seeing that if they just spend a little bit more, that that money would make its way back to them in other ways, and I’m a big believer in that, huge believer in that. In fact, I actually think that that’s one of the skills that separates those from those who are OK at business, from those who are really really extremely good. The gap is being able to see that and being able to see the bigger picture. Yeah, I agree, 100 and I you see that all the time in lots of different businesses. It’s, it’s kind of like an awareness thing, almost yeah, we could.

Dr. Jamil: 

I could ramble on for hours of what I do and I want to make a little disclaimer before we continue.

Dr. Jamil: 

This is my method of doing things it might not suit everyone, so I’ll tell you where I’m at now, james, okay. So, um, because I was so busy doing the marketing, all that management, blah, blah, blah, we don’t have a practice manager in any of my practices. Um, I I slipped up a bit personally, so I was, um, I use rights myself and I’m like yeah, yeah, wherever you need, just order it. So then I thought I’m now catched up. I put loads of policies, flow charts in place of how to deal with different things.

Dr. Jamil: 

I thought you know what One thing I don’t have control over is the cost I’m paying for my materials. Okay, and I sat back and I was like nope, you know what, I’m going to make a list of all the products we use. We use 96 products, okay, in the practice. Okay, I said, you know what, I’m going to make a list and I’m going to see how much they’re charging. I’m going to do a quick online search and one thing I found straight away, believe it or not, is that I’m not going to name the distributor. Okay, they were charging me. They’re a good distributor, they’re a sales rep, really close friend of mine, really nice guy. They were charging me, on average, 20% more than I should be paying and obviously I got really annoyed.

Dr. Jamil: 

My cost of materials is about £55,456 a year. Knock 20% off that, that’s £10,000. And I don’t know about you or me, james, you’re not going to give me 10 grand, are you what? Uh, the distributor aren’t going to give me 10 grand, are they? So by simply doing that and by having a good stock flow and knowing what to order, I realized I could save myself 10 grand a year just by dedicating two hours per month and ordering stocks and just trying to find the best places to order. Now I’m saying to whoever’s listening don’t start trying to save pennies. It’s not worth it. You’re going to kill yourself. You’ll be spending three days just trying to get the best prices and you’ll confuse yourself in the whole process. So that’s where I did it. So that’s one part where I really let go and, looking back at it, I should have really sorted that out in the past. So, james, I think what we should talk about next is how I grew, what I did.

Dr. James: 

Okay, yeah, I like that and yeah, 100. I was actually going to jump in there and ask you about that specific process because even before you grew okay, I actually think there’s a question that comes before that, chronologically from what you said what caused you to be inspired to start your own practice? And that’s because you thought there’s an easy ability here to provide a higher level of service okay, for not much more money, and therefore your philosophy or model is that that makes its way back to you in goodwill and makes your business successful. Okay, so that was the moment of inspiration. Okay, that was the why. So, actually, what did you do exactly next? Like, how did you go about getting finance for the practice? What was that process? Like the very first one. And then, and then the next question for me is how did you grow it?

Dr. Jamil: 

so, um, I bought my first.

Dr. Jamil: 

I I don’t know me, looking back, maybe that wasn’t the best idea. When your twit what was? I must have been 25 when I first bought my first practice, which now, looking back, is awfully young, um. And I think the good thing about being young when you don’t have real responsibilities, you do wear it, you almost live invincible, don’t you think? Yeah, I’ll be fine, I’ll figure it out, but I didn’t, um. So I found a practice close to home, 25 minutes away from home awful, really good practice. Smallish nhs contract potential to grow.

 

Dr. Jamil: 

Um, so I look, I personally look for practices that I can add value on. So I obviously analyze a lot of practices that come on sale. I’m nosy, I look at all of their accounts and I have a look what’s going on with each one. There’s a few practices that I have for sale for about 1.6, 1.8 million Practice owned. I crunch numbers a lot, okay, as you could tell. Okay, I look for practices where I can get them pennies on the dollar and I can add value really quickly. Okay, I’m not really bothered by competition in my area because I believe my philosophy I can dominate that market within two years, and that is going to sound very arrogant, ok, and I apologize, but maybe it’s my maybe, maybe I’m just a bit stupid sometimes, but I just do it anyway, ok. So, yeah, I look for practices.

Dr. Jamil: 

I never, ever, offer asking price, ever, never, have never bought a practice asking price. My philosophy is it doesn’t matter how much these dental agents say, oh, this practice is EBITDA time, eight time. My belief is that a practice is only worth what somebody is willing to pay. Am I right? It doesn’t matter. I can think my practice are worth 10 million pounds tomorrow. Ok, but is there going to be anyone that buys it for 10 million? I don’t know, probably not. So I always, you always have to drop that line in, okay, whether you’re speaking to an agent, whoever you’re speaking, to say, look, this is my offer. And sometimes I do give a very low ballsy offer. And one thing I am not doing is scared of being rejected. Yeah, I don’t care if somebody says no, or somebody says no, he’s not interested. That makes me happy because then I don’t have to worry about another practice. So I always ask below asking price.

Dr. Jamil: 

So my first practice obviously I got it under a loan and thankfully, within two years, two years, three months, I ask, below asking price. Um, so my first practice obviously I got it under a loan and, thankfully, within two years two, two years, three months I cleared off the loan. Wow, um. So my debt to? Um, sorry guys, um, I know whoever’s listening. There’s a lot of numbers, a lot of business in this, but my debt to turnover ratio is is so low it’s probably less than a percent at this point, and it’s because, if you’ve got the money there, in my opinion, instead of paying so I was paying about eight grand in interest a year for these loans. I was like, why am I paying that if I’ve got the money sitting in the bank doing nothing? I might as well pay it off. Um, so, yeah, um, I saved up borrowed money from family members, paid the deposit within two years, years, I cleared it all.

Dr. Jamil: 

So my second practice, second practice I. So then, as you grow, if you have your first practice, one thing you’ll quickly have is capital within the business, yeah, and if you grow it at the right rate and you do the right things, you will have you do become a cash rich company. There’s no two ways about it. Um, and then what I did? Uh, for my second practice. Then I had more purchasing power so I could say, no, hold on, I’m not going to go down that bank route, I will pay up front, whatever the man we agree on, it almost becomes a better deal for the principal Because, yeah, they might get maybe 10% more, but what if the other buyer doesn’t get finance? Then they’ve gone through two months of headache from not getting to approve. But if somebody says, yeah, I’m just going to pay it up front, it gives you a lot more leniency. So, yes, the second practice I did buy up upfront. And another thing I do that most people don’t do I don’t buy building. Okay, they don’t make me enough money. Oh, okay, is that interesting?

Dr. James: 

yeah, it is yeah.

Dr. Jamil: 

So I always put by a by a buyout clause in my leases that I try to create a very favourable lease in the deal. So at any one point if I do want to buy it, I could buy it. The lease is out minus the rent I’ve paid.

Dr. James: 

Yeah, oh, okay.

Dr. Jamil: 

So, like a lot of people that go and buy practices, I just don’t feel like you just got to put the question out there and you’d be surprised. You’d be surprised Most people and my landlords at all my practices. They’re lovely, very nice people. They’ll do anything to help me. So I’m not really worried, but within 15 years you should have done what you’ve had to do to help me. So I’m not really worried, but within 15 years you should have done what you’ve had to do. In my opinion, most leases are 15, 25 years and another thing I don’t do is buy expensive leases. I always look. I want to be sub-thousand in each practice. So a lot of practices that come up for sale. You’ll see annual rent of 25 27 000. Have you seen it, james?

Dr. James: 

I I haven’t, you know, it’s something that I’ve never really actually looked into is, so you’ll know way more than me on this so a lot of them have like huge, um, huge rents.

Dr. Jamil: 

On top of that you’re probably buying the practice at top dollar. By the time you even make a penny you’ve got to pay 25 grand. You’ve got to pay the loan back. Let’s say, even on a 15, if you buy a practice for 1.5 million, okay, your loan plus the interest rate. Where is the interest rate? About 6%, now I don’t know what practice. 4% to 5%. Whatever you get on it, what would be your monthly payments? At least 100 grand a year. 100 grand a year. So that’s 10 grand For practice to turn over.

Dr. Jamil: 

Let’s say they show a profit to you of 300 grand, minus 120 grand that you’re going to have to repay back in loan. You’re really earning £180,000. Really, aren’t you? Yeah, are you better off not having that headache, not having that huge liability on your head? Yeah, am I right? Yeah, so that’s why I don’t buy big practices. My, my first practice I bought has two surgeries. Okay. My second practice it has two for the expansion of three. My third practice that I’m opening in three months time has four surgeries, but I’m going to open two to begin with. I like small practices. I have a lot more control over staff dentists, therapists, you just it just creates a better experience awesome, that’s cool.

Dr. James: 

So we’re proceeding very nicely chronologically along the journey now, and I suppose the next thing for me is just what you said earlier that you touched upon, which was how did you actually grow these practices then? What are your pearls and gems of wisdom on that?

Dr. Jamil: 

So number one so my first practice I took over was in the midst of COVID. I did something really good for society where I didn’t charge any patients if they needed tooth out whatever. That automatically created a lot of goodwill for me straight away. And during the midst of COVID I had a lot more time to focus on marketing, which I don’t have the luxury of anymore. So to give you some numbers to test my ideology in my first year I must have, my first year was quite a bad year, but that’s the COVID year. A year after that we grew about, I think, 170%. And then second year we grew 69%. And in the first quarter of my first financial year we’re growing about 15%. Now you’re going to ask me Jamil, cut the crap. You do it, okay, let’s go. Then let’s, let’s see how I did it.

Dr. Jamil: 

So number one thing one thing I’m not going to blow um, one thing I’m not going to lie about is that I’m good at marketing. I like I’m sorry, james, I’m going call there I like creating demand. I like creating. I can get the punters through the door. Okay, all private. I don’t, we don’t take on NHS in any of my practices. So I look for really small NHS practices. This works if you’ve got really small NHS, really small NHS contracts, so you’ve got a large one. You’re not. You’re always just going to try and funnel in NHS patients to upsell private. That’s not my business motto.

Dr. Jamil: 

Um, so what I do is google adwords. Very good at google adwords. Um, I made a lot of mistake on google adwords. I have quite a large marketing budget for google adwords. Um, approximately and I do it all myself we spend at least about three thousand pound for the both practices at the moment per month. So, marketing budget about forty, forty five thousand pound a year for both practices, which is a much okay, which is not. It is a reasonable amount. A lot of you dentists are listening to this, might be practice owners might be considering it’s not a hard skill to learn google adwords. Okay, google want you to spend money with them. Just watch loads of youtube videos, like I did, and while you go into an agent and letting them do it all you’re doing, they’ll take 25 30 monthly. That 25 30 that you’re spending with them, you could have spent on acquiring more patients, am I right? Um, good website.

Dr. Jamil: 

One thing I don’t do okay, I’m upfront, clear with my price. If there’s no from on any of my website. We is a simple rate for everything. If they have a composite fillet, if they have an extraction difficult, easy how do you define easy and simple? And in difficult extraction you can’t define it. Yeah, yeah, you might. You might be able to define surgical, non-surgical? Yeah, maybe you can differentiate your price there. But we have um easy One. Our patients pick us because we have all clear prices.

Dr. Jamil: 

Having a website On our website, on About Us. You can search it up later. But if you go to Forrest Dental and go search my name Forrest Dental, jamil Dental we don’t have our bios on Syria. Our bios are like what hidden talent do you have? What, um, who’s your inspiration? We don’t. We don’t give all that spiel. I’ve done this, I’ve done that, I’ve been trained by this.

Dr. Jamil: 

It in the reality of it, it doesn’t matter to a patient. It’s whether you come, whether the patient attends feels like you know what. I trust this guy or trust this woman to do the best quality, best job that they can do. Okay, word of mouth. I don’t believe in word of mouth. It’s too slow marketing-wise. Okay, yeah, residual, yeah, in five, ten years time it’ll work his way to grow a practice rapidly.

Dr. Jamil: 

It doesn’t work, okay. What you need to do, word of mouth should be. So, as you grow your practice, one thing you’ll find you’ll taper off. It doesn’t matter how much you spend on Google AdWords. That’s where really word of mouth comes into play. Lot of people that take like, if I said to you, james, go to hold down the road, good dentist, nice chap, nice woman, they’ll look after you and you’re the type of guy or type of patient that says take somebody’s word of mouth rather than googling. That percentage of patient is really low. Now, how often do you call one of your friends and say do you have a good plumber? What do you do? Everyone just goes online. Am I right?

Dr. Jamil: 

yeah, yeah, I totally agree, totally agree one of my things is true for any business yeah, so um, another thing that’s really helped me is not just about a patient seeing you online, it’s about building trust, okay. So another thing I do we have um in one of my practice. We’ve got about 1,300, 400-ish five-star Google reviews. So we’re five-star rated.

Dr. Jamil: 

In the other practice we’ve got about 700, 800, I don’t know that has really amplified our turnover. If you want to grow, if you’re going to listen to one thing about this collect Google reviews. Now you’re going to ask me how do you get Google reviews? Yes, how collect?

Dr. James: 

google reviews. Now you’re going to ask me how do you get google? Yes, how so?

Dr. Jamil: 

so that’s how I measure success.

Dr. Jamil: 

Okay, I measure success in um, how many reviews I have. So I set myself targets per year. So I say to them guys, so I told on my whole team and one of my practices I want to have 2000 google reviews by the end of the year. I don’t care about financials, I don’t care about how much money, what my bottom line is. That stuff is irrelevant. Okay, yes, it matters to a degree, but it just shows you’re doing the right thing by the patient. If I get another 700 five-star Google review, surely I’ve done something right. Yeah, 700 five-star Google reviews, surely I’ve done something right. Yeah, am I right?

Dr. Jamil: 

And whether you like it or not, let’s not beat around the bush the more reviews you have, the more patients will trust you. The more money you make, the higher your turnover. The higher the turnover, your fixed costs stay fixed. Your bottom line increases because in dentistry most of it is fixed. Yeah, you might have lab fees. You might have lab fees, you might have associate fees. If you’re a practice owner, you might have a bit of lab bill, you might have a bit of more material, but your cost per patient comes down substantially once you get over that curve, am I right?

Dr. Jamil: 

Um, so another thing is that I want to make you all aware is that don’t only collect google reviews. Bing, okay, which, if most people buy a windows laptop, they open up. Is it edge? Now, what is it called? Explorer, whatever it’s called, I believe. So edge, yeah, yeah, edge.

Dr. Jamil: 

One thing you’ll find is what search engine do they have? Bing, okay, bing doesn’t pull reviews from Google. Okay, bing and Google, direct competitor. They have no interest in each other. So you have to ask yourself so, juma, where does Bing pull its reviews from Two sources Facebook and Yahoo? Wow, good knowledge. Does that make sense? So, just because I have 1,500 reviews on Google, I’m losing a huge portion of patients, and let’s say they’re older. They don’t know how to change a browser to Google. They don’t use Google. I’ve lost a huge chunk of potential patients, haven’t I? Yeah, it’s huge. There you go. That’s what I do Now.

Dr. Jamil: 

I don’t do much Instagram marketing. I don’t know. It’s just the guys who’ve. I don’t do much Instagram marketing. I don’t know. It’s just the guys who’ve done it well. Fair play to them. They’ve done it well. It’s just, it’s a monopoly, isn’t it? It’s like apps on an app store. Okay, in my opinion, the guys in apps on the online app store. One thing you’ll find, james, is that the apps. There’s no medium ground on apps. Have you noticed there’s either? There’s a huge. The apps that do really well do really well. The apps that don’t do really well don’t do well at all. Yeah, I hear you, have you noticed. Yeah, yeah, notice it. You’ll see. Like, let’s say, a notepad app, is it evernote or elephant note? Whatever it is that’s marked market leading? And go see all the other note apps.

Dr. James: 

They don’t touch it yeah, yeah, no, totally, I hear you yeah and that’s why instagram’s too slow for me.

Dr. Jamil: 

In my opinion, way too I. I just don’t think it’ll work for me. It’s good for associates that want to market themselves, but it just doesn’t work for me there’s a way to summarize what you’re saying.

Dr. James: 

Yeah, this comes from gary v, and what he’s talking about is underpriced attention. Okay, it’s another way of saying it, right? So if you think about it, right, you have eyes, you have the viewers on the platform and you have the creators in the platform, right? So if you divide the viewers by the creators, you’re going to get a ratio right now, instagram’s number of viewers versus creators. Okay, that ratio is going to be way lower because, so, whenever a dentist thinks I’m going to market myself, right, they go straight to insta every single one, right? But? And google reviews to an extent as well, yeah.

Dr. James: 

However, from what you’re saying, it sounds like there’s way more people using it, or there’s way less dentists doing it properly with the google. Yeah, five-star reviews, and what that means is that it’s easier for you to get attention on there, which is ultimately the thing. Is that manifests in your turnover, right? The thing that now I I’ve obviously we’ve all heard of instagram used in that sense, google reviews most of us have heard of google reviews used in that sense. The real gem in there is what you said about bing. That’s flipping cool, yeah, cool. Did you figure out? And I actually. What did you get that from?

Dr. Jamil: 

you just figured out I just stumbled across it. So what I did? I bought a new, a new PC, and I was like because I search myself all the time just to see how I’m ranking on SEO and I opened up and I was like, damn it, this Windows PC was installed with Bing. I was like, oh my gosh, because here I am thinking I’m almighty, I’ve dominated the online market and I’m like I look and I’m like, wait, it’s not pulling my reviews. I market and I’m like I look and I’m like, wait, it’s not pulling my reviews. I was just so surprised. I was so upset that day. I still remember it. I was so upset. So I was like I went there and I made, I made. I told the girls we need to start again. So we’ve got 50 um, 50 bing um, y’all reviews. But that doesn’t sound like a lot. But if you look at my competitors, that’s a lot. I dominate the market.

Dr. James: 

It’s good, that’s that’s really clever man, that’s really really my competitors, that’s a lot. I dominate the market, that’s good. That’s really clever mate. That’s really, really, really clever and that’s really valuable for anybody who’s listening. Yeah, marketing in practice 101. Get the attention. Marketing in any business 101. Get the attention and then go from there effectively. So, yeah, man, I love it.

Dr. Jamil: 

So what I think we should talk about how about we do this, james, because we’re gonna, I’m gonna ramble on because I’m too excited, okay, so we’ll split it up. Let’s split it up to number one how did how do I get the patients? Number two, how? The middle ground, so reception team, how I’ve dealt with that bit, okay. And number three, the patient journey at the end throughout treatment and stuff like that, so that all contributes in to increasing turnover and that’s why I’ve increased my turnover so rapidly.

Dr. Jamil: 

Fair, so we talked about google reviews. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another thing you’re gonna do whoever’s listening to this you’re gonna get a facebook page and you’re gonna actually put some effort on facebook page. Okay, don’t go get a marketing guide that goes and pumps out these generic things that brush twice, two times a day, with the correct end of the toothbrush. Patients already know that. Okay, um, so we’re going to pump, we’re going to start getting good, valuable, um, good, valuable content. Don’t put generic content out there. It doesn’t work, it hasn’t worked, and that’s one thing you’ll say why don’t I get the attention I need? Okay, number, number. So, with Facebook, I’ll give you some ideas. For example, on Halloween, two of these young girls, young children, cute as hell, came in dressed in their Halloween costume. Take a picture of them and say oh, we’re treating patients on Halloween. It’s something that really touches somebody’s heart, yeah.

Dr. James: 

Yeah, we’re going to do that. Make the content real. Everybody’s using the copy-paste Gennaro stuff, right? Yeah, it’s so true. And making content real means what that actually means is just posting personal things you and the team smiling, you and the team having some fun, or just, like you said, some cool patients that visited Anyway.

Dr. Jamil: 

You’re lucky. Don’t fall into that trap where, as you can tell, james, I’m a bit OCD. I analyze all dental practices okay, I’ve analyzed hundreds and I look at their Facebook and you’ll see posts that Invisalign open day one post about Christmas opening hours, Another thing about COVID and when they were shut down. For COVID, there’s no regularities, ok, and I just think that’s so bad. A lot of the patients that are going to come and spend big dollar with you, ok, a lot of patients use Facebook rather than Instagram. Ok, if somebody wants implants, that if you. If I said to you, james, how, if somebody wants implants, are they going to go and find an implant dentist on instagram? No, they’re going to either use google or facebook or find it on facebook or from recommendations, and then they’ll go on facebook. They’ll be like oh, this chapter is google. Yeah, okay, I agree. Another thing you’re going to do all your practice owners or whoever you’re going to get a professional photographer. Okay, now, don’t start being a hero and trying to do it yourself is a waste of time. Okay, you’re going to get a professional photographer. Find somebody on facebook, somebody that’s starting off in their career. Um, they, they are. They charged about 200 pound for me. Um, don’t go searching the big guys around your area. They’re going to charge you four, five hundred pound waste of money.

Dr. Jamil: 

Anyone with an SLR can take photos. And then what you need to do? You need to block off the diary for two hours the night before. You need to debrief everyone. What shots you want, okay, so people find it more relatable. Oh, hold on, I know that receptionist always answers the phone to me, or that’s a reception that takes me in straight away. You’re more likely to get likes on it. And if you see Facebook’s I’m so excited about this, james, that’s a good time. If you see Facebook’s algorithm, what happens when one of your friends likes a post? You have nothing to do with that post. It comes up like it’ll be like um kieran has like this post. Have you seen that on facebook?

Dr. Jamil: 

yeah, yeah so why would you not capitalize on it? Yeah, it’s crazy the more likes your post gets, the more reach you have. And another thing is if you’re if any of you guys are practice owners, you need to get a Facebook like counter.

Dr. James: 

Okay.

Dr. Jamil: 

Okay, it’s about. It’s about 350 quid. Okay, it’s cool. It’s like an airport thing where somebody we made this cool mood board that says with an arrow saying, like our post and watch it flip. A patient, just like, like the post, like our page for it to flip Straight away. That page is locked into me that’s cool.

Dr. James: 

Wait. Where is that? Is that in the waiting area?

Dr. Jamil: 

yeah, can I show you. Let me see um so, james, what? I’m gonna do, and what I’m gonna do is all right. So, james, oh sorry, no no, no, it’s good.

Dr. James: 

I know you were gonna show me that little flip. You know what? I think we should save that, okay, because what you and I should do is create a live event on dentistry. Invest sometimes where people can come along and you can. You can share your screen and you can show them all of that stuff and people will see it firsthand what we mean. Jamila, I sense that you have a flipping ton of knowledge. I sense that we’re not even scratching the surface, my friend sorry I just jumped in there.

Dr. James: 

There was some other things you wanted to touch upon yeah.

Dr. Jamil: 

So, um, like, I think personally, there’s a lot that I could give my own input on individual things that might imply like, for example, google adwords we could talk about. Not everyone is right to be an associate. I think we could also touch upon about how can I market myself and as associate, what if I don’t want to be a practice owner? And I’ve got loads of little tips and tricks that you can a lot of associates can do quite cheaply, quite quickly, okay, um, so let’s go to the next phase of it, so acquiring patient. Now, when they pick up the phone, what do what? How did I learn this part? So we’ve got a few communication channels. We’ve got facebook. Okay, whatsapp business. Whatsapp business is great because a lot of you practice owners or potential practice owners might, might feel inclined to give your own number to patients, don’t? You can open up a Facebook WhatsApp with your landline number on it. So when I’ve got a difficult extraction, I tell a patient do you have WhatsApp? Just let me know how you are doing in the evening. Just WhatsApp, our landline number. So another thing. So I touched upon Facebook, whatsapp, phone. I’m going to touch about phone now and what other communication. We use this bot called Inquiry Bot doing really well, okay, so I learned like I’ll touch upon again about hospitality rather than healthcare. Okay, the person that picks up that phone is the most important person in your team. They will make or break you.

Dr. Jamil: 

Okay, now, if you doesn’t matter how good of a team member that person is, if you don’t want them to deal with one of your inquiries, or if you called as a patient and you think I don’t know if they’re the right person I would want to deal with, you need to train them. So what I did myself this is going to sound really, really, really sad, james. Okay, I apologize to all my people. I called all the Michelin-star restaurants. Well, not all of them, I called them about 10. Okay, I wanted to know how they dealt with and I thought who else would be better in hospitality than a Michelin-star restaurant? Am I right? Call them up If you guys are going to do something. Call them up if you, if you guys are going to do something, call them up and just see how amazing, how well-mannered they are on the phone. Okay, so you’ll see how softly they speak, how, how it almost feels like they can’t do enough for you on the phone how they will work around you, how they break, that they don’t have tables and to you that for that day and time, like for example, they would really say I’m really sorry, um, I’m really sorry, but we don’t have a day. But if you call up a normal restaurant, they say nope, we can’t do that time. That’s what they’ll say. Okay, um, so I learned a lot about hospitality from Michelin-style restaurants.

Dr. Jamil: 

Another tip that I’m going to give you all is that get your reception team. If somebody is experiencing toothache, they’re not going to be themselves. Ok, fun fact, they haven’t slept for 24 hours. If you haven’t slept for 24 hours, I guarantee you’re not going to be yourself. When they pick up the phone and somebody says I’m having really bad toothache, I haven’t slept all night, the first thing you need to do is say I am really sorry and I completely sympathize with the pain that you’re going through. Now let me see what I can do for you. You know that. You know that angry patient or that that upset patient. They switch straight away because it’s almost like you understand what’s going on. You sympathize with them, am I right?

Dr. James: 

yeah, I like it um so that?

Dr. Jamil: 

so the next thing is so that’s dealing with patients. We’ll go through a full segment about this, okay? Third option is getting the patient. How do you agree with the treatment plan? Do not ever sell a treatment plan ever, don’t ever force a patient to take a treatment plan.

Dr. Jamil: 

Just say these are what I would recommend you to do, and I say something that is brutal. I said, whether you like it or not, it’s not my mouth, is it? Truth be told, you need six fillings. It’s not really my mouth. It’s on you to get that treated. And I always say that I don’t mind if you go to another dentist. Don’t ever think I’ll never see you again. Wherever you do, the key thing you’re going to take out of this consultation is that you’re going to go do something about it. Maybe my prices are too expensive? Fine, okay, just go get it done. Okay, if there’s any problems, give me a call, I’ll sort it out. I’m never going to be one of these dentists. I say oh no, you’ve been to another dentist which I get in my local area.

Dr. Jamil: 

When a patient comes to me for a second opinion, that dentist refuses to see them again because they, in their opinion, they’ve changed registration or whatever. Okay, there is no registration in nhs anyway in in wales, england, um, so I don’t feel like there’s anything wrong in a patient getting a second opinion. If it was my mom and she needed six fillings and she was a bit umming and ahhing that I don’t know if I need these six fillings I would I advise my patients, go get a second opinion. In fact I go to the level where I say I will show you the x-ray, go take these x-rays to another dentist, see if they agree with me. And some patients do and I say, fine, fair enough, that’s fair. And you know when, when you build up that trust, that patient’s going to trust you once they have that course of treatment.

Dr. Jamil: 

Another thing is finance. Okay, so I don’t mind being um. Scott was a bit wild with this um, your dental agent, the guy who you’re in partnership with. So at any given point we have about 250 000 pound outstanding from our patients at any one point. Okay, and I take all the risk. Okay, so we split it up over 12 months. So you don’t need an FCA license if you split it up over 12 months, um, with 12 payments, so you can’t do it more than a year. You can’t charge interest because I’m a Muslim, I don’t really like charging interest. Um, it’s against my beliefs. Okay, I know sometimes I am a hypocrite, I do sometimes pay interest. I know I am a hypocrite in that state, but by offering that, your uptake of patients is huge. Okay, go. I use a company called go cardless. Okay, they charge a percent plus 20 P, now any finance company, james. Do you know what they charge? A percent plus 20p, now any finance company, james, do you know what they charge?

Dr. Jamil: 

no idea good question seven, eight, seven, eight percent interest free over 12 months, whatever they charge. Five to seven percent. Okay. Now the success rate on this is not 100. Is it? Every person that you apply for finance is not going to get it, is it no? So then if you calculate your true loss massive losses I know my failure rate. Do you want to know my failure rate? It’s about 1.32%. Okay, so if I’ve got £250,000 on finance, I would have bad debts of about 1.23%. Okay, so the finances cost me two percent and everyone’s getting approved finance right. But I don’t do high ticket items like, for example, if your lab bill’s huge where you’re doing 10 veneers. My cases are run-of-the-mill general dentistry. You do a filling. What is your true cost If your principal is nurses and a bit of your time In extraction? What’s the true cost? It’s not really much. Is it A bit of anaesthetic and a bit of time?

Dr. James: 

Am I right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, this is the thing, yeah.

Dr. Jamil: 

I’m really risk adverse. I hate risk, okay, yeah, so um, I, I offer 12 month finance to every single one of my patients, every single one, and I hope that they would pay enough that it covers at least my lab bill and my therapist cost and whatever. That’s what I aim to do. My cost to the business is nothing really, is it?

Dr. James: 

no, no, right, not when you do not, when you’re doing things like that. You know what, jamil, you have so much knowledge and you know what I like. I like this. I love the excitement and I love the flipping energy, bro, because you can tell you legitimately enjoy this stuff.

Dr. James: 

And this is exactly why I wanted to get you onto the podcast, because when I was talking to you beforehand, you were like james, I don’t know that much, I don’t feel like there’s a podcast in there, but I tell you what we uh, we certainly made up for that today, didn’t we? And this is the thing. And there’s, there’s even more, there’s even more to come, right, so you know what I’d love to do. I’m going to get you back on the dentistry invest podcast at some point. We’re going to talk about each one of those things that you can in more detail, because you see, these things that we’re talking about right now, there’s no book on these, there’s no manual on these, right? Yeah, this knowledge is just not out there, unless you ask the people that have done it. And when I say that, what I mean is you, because obviously you’ve been there, and this is the sort of thing that gets me really excited as well, because anyone listening to this podcast, you can literally take this stuff, rock up to work on monday and increase your revenue.

Dr. Jamil: 

Yeah and serve your higher standard so my my main aim, james, is that I’m not the best at this. Any of this. All I want to do is just create a more competitive market, so it makes it a bit more fun for me to try and create new creative ideas that will benefit the industry. That’s all, nothing more, nothing less. I don’t want to show off on my abilities or anything like that no, I get it.

Dr. James: 

No, totally humble. And here’s the thing when you share, not only do you help other people, but you actually get more back. Okay, and when you share, right, what it means is, as I say, you’re helping all of these people and more people who are actually at the very top of business and doing extremely well. You’ll find that they’re the biggest sharers. Okay, because they realize that they get that back, that openness, that trustworthiness, and also, number two, to actually implement this stuff, we have to have action as well. Are you with me? Changes two parts an idea and action. Are you with me? And by the time, you know everybody’s iterating and catching up on everybody else and the people at the top know that they just keep iterating. They’ll always have that edge. You know what I mean yeah, that’s who I think you are.

Dr. James: 

That’s who I think you are. I. I really appreciate it. I mean it’s true. It’s true, jamil. We’ve delivered so much value in this podcast episode today. This podcast has went on for an hour and 20 minutes and I usually try to keep them to about 40, so this is a mammoth podcast episode. So to anybody who’s made it this far, it will have been worth it because of all the stuff that we’ve dished out. Let’s get Jamil back on the Dentist Invest podcast another time. How does that sound, jamil?

Dr. James: 

that’s perfect thumbs up my man, nice one, jamil, awesome to chat, as always, and we shall speak again, really, really, really soon thank you if you enjoyed this podcast, please hit, follow or subscribe so you can stay up to date with information on new podcasts which are released weekly. Please also feel free to leave a positive review so others can learn about this podcast and benefit from it. I would also encourage any fans of the podcast to sign up to the free Facebook community from which the podcast originated. Please search Dentists who Invest on Facebook and hit join to become part of a community of thousands of other dentists interested in improving their finances, well-being and investing knowledge. Looking forward to seeing you on there.

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