Dr James, 0s:

Welcome back to the Dentists Who Invest Podcast today, and this is a little bit of a different episode because it is an expose on all the things that we should know about indemnity, but they're somehow obfuscated. So listen up guys because these are the things that are gonna be able to save you money and make sure you're gonna get a better deal. I'm joined by Neel Jaiswal and Adam O'Keefe, both of AllMed Pro. We're gonna be getting into the details and the specifics of the need-to-know stuff that people just don't share with you whenever it comes to your indemnity. Indemnity myth busting, if you will. Looking forward to this episode as ever. As ever, you can claim your CPD for this episode within the official Dentists who invest Smart Money Members Club. Smart Money Members Club also includes multiple mini courses and webinar series on finance for dentists, including how to become as tax efficient as possible, as well as understanding investing. All this content counts as verifiable CPD, and you can download your certificates there and then upon completion of each lesson. In addition to this, we also include a whopping 10% discount on your dental indemnity and 5% discount on lab bills for dental principals, amongst other perks and discounts for members. Please use the link in the description to claim your verifiable CPD for this episode. Guys, Indemnity Mythbussen is the uh name of the game when it comes to this episode on the podcast. And Adam, I know you and I have done similar-ish stuff to this before, but there's a lot of stuff to unravel. And of course, we're not going to point fingers today, that's not what we're here to do. We're just here to say, hey, do you know what? Here's where everybody is, here's how we can do better. But before we do that, Neel, welcome back to the Dentists Who Invest podcast. It's been a three-year hiatus. Would you believe we need to do better than that, don't we?

Neel, 1m 43s:

I know time flies, as I was saying, when you're having fun, and I've had a couple of children who's kept me busy. But uh I think I messaged you maybe last Christmas to say uh congratulations on how nice it is. Although we don't talk, because you're uh virtually there, I I think of you and I see you pop up, so it's it's like we're there. Um but no, congratulations again on everything. And um I heard there's a conference coming up as well, which sounds very exciting.

Dr James, 2m 8s:

Oh, hell yeah, hell yeah. That's on the 9th of May for anybody who's interested. The Business of Dentistry Conference, 500 dentists in attendance in Birmingham. So yeah, man, it's gonna be really cool. And I'm just sorry I didn't uh reach out to you sooner to invite you because Neel's gonna be there as well, guys, for what it's worth, too, uh, which will be very fun. Certainly the more the merrier. But I uh yeah, like I was saying, I really can't believe it's been three years. You know, it's funny because some people you just talk to them a little bit, and three years, you just pick up where you left off. It's almost like no time passed, isn't it? So I I I definitely feel like that for sure. But you know what? I think before we just jump into the myth busting, uh, which is obviously the uh the the point of this episode, uh you guys wanted to announce something, didn't you? Because Adam, you've had a few things move around with AMP, and now you and Neel work together in a different capacity. Uh interested to know more on that.

Adam, 2m 59s:

Yeah, Neel and uh PDI have worked closely with AMP for sort of four or five years now. Uh we worked on co-events, webinars, training sessions, and we're always working. Um, well, we just we just seem to work together. So from from the beginning of the month, um PDI have now joined forces with AllMed Pro. Um so it's really exciting. Um from our perspective, the simple reason was dentists want clarity, confidence, and a team they can trust. And I think between both AMP and PDI, they've got that.

Dr James, 3m 30s:

I know we allow to talk about AMPs, big change as well on this podcast. I can edit this part out if we're not I can edit it out.

Adam, 3m 40s:

Yeah, you can do, of course. Uh yeah, uh late last year we become uh Brown and Brown, part of Brown and Brown uh insurance network, uh, which is in the US is a fourth largest broker. Um so from a day-to-day perspective, nothing changes. Um the co-founders, myself, Tom, and the wider team all remain. We're still Walmart Pro, we still run it from day to day, but it just gives us that extra ability to you know reach out um to our global partner uh to uh as and when needed. So it's uh yeah, quite exciting times for us as a business.

Dr James, 4m 13s:

Very good, very good. I'm sure you're a busy man. And you know what? I remember, Adam, just one more thing I'm gonna say, and then we're gonna get into the uh the juicy part of this podcast, the meat and potatoes, so to speak, and that is the myth busting, because that's of course what we promised and we want to fulfill on. Last year, you and I did something really interesting where we offered 10% off your indemnity uh to anybody who was a user on the DWI platform uh with AMP. So it's important to shout that out today. Uh, that actually does still stand, interestingly, for anybody listening to this podcast. You reach out to Adam or Neel off the back of this podcast, I'll be happy to honour that. Uh, of course, most people aren't really going to renew their policy until about September, maybe August time, I'm gonna say. But listen, it is worth mentioning there will be some people out there, and even to keep in the back of your mind, because I believe the average you'll you guys all know this. Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, the average indemnity in the UK, the average fee is what, three and a half K. Yeah, so sort of around that that mark, yeah. Ish. So there's 350 quid saved right there for not just a similar product, but actually one that, well, you know, how can I say this? Does things better. Uh uh, well, at least that's the the purpose and the idea, anyway. Of course, somebody will just have to wear that up for themselves. But listen, we wouldn't be in business if we didn't think we were doing the best for everybody. Uh, so yeah, certainly uh worth mentioning is that anyway, guys. We've teased this enough, we've dangled the carrot, haven't we, up until this very point. Now it's about time that we got into myth busting. And we've narrowed this down to about five or so, five common misconceptions or things that we don't necessarily realize about our indemnity that are true, but that that that we that yeah, that unfortunately, mm-ho how can I say this, maybe can be improved on, I think it's fair to say. So, yeah, the balls in your court, Adam and Neel, who would like to kick things off?

Neel, 6m 5s:

Shall I do the juicy ones? Shall I act the like the the dentist and Adam act as the uh the broker?

Dr James, 6m 12s:

Oh, roleplay. Okay, yeah, just have some fun.

Neel, 6m 15s:

Right, I'm a bit stressed. Oh, it's been a hard day.

Dr James, 6m 18s:

Wait, are we roleplaying yet or or not? I've kidded, I've kidded, I'm kidding, go for it.

Neel, 6m 23s:

Uh so I mean, I hear, I mean, I see it from the dentist's point of view, which is kind of why uh I feel my involvement with the team is really important because I can give that feedback. Um one of the questions we used to get, we don't get it so much nowadays, but I still think it's valid, Adam, is oh, insurers are always trying to get out of things and they'll look into the small print. And if I haven't told you every little thing, I actually don't feel that I'm properly covered, and there's 14 pages of things that I need to go through. Whereas with a mutual, everything's covered, uh, because it's discretionary. How would you answer that?

Adam, 7m 0s:

I would say be careful with that that that chain of thought. Um with insurance, like your car insurance, your home insurance, if you give a fair presentation of what the risk is, uh, you should not be in trouble when it comes to a claim or a complaint. Um so with the um with the discretionary model, we also find um they do repudiate claims, they do chuck things out, um what and that's sometimes down to what's declared, whether that's the hours or sessions. So I wouldn't say that's a straightforward um or what's worse, uh issue?

Dr James, 7m 36s:

Yeah, issue.

Neel, 7m 40s:

I I think what what I found is uh being discretionary, you don't know where you are. And if you had a James, we like we talked about cars last time. I always use the analogy if you have a nice car, Jaguar, Porsche, Ferrari, whatever you have, would you want a handshake, discretionary contract, or would you rather have a piece of paper that says I'm doing this many miles, this is how I drive, this is my past record, and there's an ombudsman if anything goes wrong. So would you take a handshake for insurance, or would you rather have uh a contract access to and nobody wants a handshake? So I I think it's pretty clear once uh you tell them that. And and I do find the guys do use their discretion actually, when something may not be in the policy or it's be above and beyond, when I've reached out to them, they have really tried and helped quite a lot of people outside of the scope of the policy. So that's why we're, you know, we're really pleased to be part of the old Med Pro family because they have the same values as us to help dentists.

Adam, 8m 36s:

Sure. Yeah, I think that's important. Sorry, I don't I think that's important. There is there is times we go beyond what's just covered in the policy because people do make genuine mistakes. Um so we have got some wording within our policies that if there are genuine mistakes where they may have left out a bit of detail or uh they didn't notify us in time, um, that's not an issue. We have uh we have clauses in there which can assist, so which goes beyond the sort of average insurance policy.

Dr James, 9m 1s:

You know what? Something I was just interested to know. Um obviously with non-discretionary cover versus discretionary cover, uh so what you're saying is in essence is is there ever a situation, you know, call this a stupid question. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't know. I'm gonna throw it out there. Is there ever a situation where non-discretionary cover does actually benefit the dentist, or should they always be looking for discretionary cover? Sorry, sorry, sorry, the other way around. Is there ever a situation where the non-discretionary cover uh uh sorry, the discretionary cover benefits the dentist versus non-discretionary cover? That's what I want to know.

Neel, 9m 38s:

Not that I've seen.

Dr James, 9m 39s:

So they really should be looking for non-discretionary cover every single time.

Neel, 9m 43s:

I think so. And logically, again, if those two options are presented to you and it was a brand new thing, and no other I don't think any other country or any other profession has discretionary cover as for professionals?

Adam, 9m 55s:

Not as far as I know. And and I think you touched on it a moment ago, Neel, with um if you've got your home or your car and an asset of worth, would you sort of take that sort of handshake or that discretionary model? Probably not.

Dr James, 10m 10s:

Tell me this. If if you had to lick your finger, maybe you have these stats, maybe you don't, maybe if you had to lick your finger and put it in the air, how many dentists would you say, how many dentists in the UK would you say as a proportion or as a percentage of the population of dentists have discretionary cover currently as things stand?

Adam, 10m 28s:

I would I would say many years ago, it was probably 90%, it's now probably 50-50.

Dr James, 10m 34s:

Still a lot though, right? 50%? That's a lot, man.

Neel, 10m 37s:

I think it's the older generation, maybe people of my age who've been with them since uni. Uh busy principals haven't had to call them too much. And I had I met a chap on Saturday, same thing. Busy principal, been with them 20 odd years, paying double what we would charge. And it's like, oh man, yeah, I keep forgetting, and I should do it every year. Um, so we just diarise it. If you know, if you're one of those people and your indemnity is not due, just send us a quick email. We'll give you a call the month before. So I think it's complacency more than and habit.

Dr James, 11m 9s:

Well, I think I think yeah, there's a component of that potentially. I mean, I guess one thing that I would have believed or something that I thought was true but isn't necessarily true, is that the the discretionary cover would be cheaper than the non-discretionary cover, but that's not even necessarily the case, right? UK dentists, Dentists Who Invests now has an official platform where you can learn about finance and obtain UK compliant verifiable CBD at the same time. The only platform that exists on which you can do both. The Smart Money Members Club has hundreds of hours of mini courses, webinar series, and live day recordings on all things finance slash tax efficiency for UK dentists. This includes complete courses on how tax works for UK dentists, finance so that you can invest and grow your own money, business so you can improve your profitability as an associate or principal, and for those out there that want it, there's also a mini course and how you can responsibly enter the crypto space using measured amounts of capital. I've gathered this content from the best of the best I could find in each respective area so that you know that this is how people at the forefront of each field advise their clients. The Smart Money Members Club also contains discounts on common things that UK dentists need to pay for on a regular basis. This includes a whopping 10% discount on dental indemnity, the offer to beat your income protection deal no matter what you're paying, and for the principals out there, 5% discount on lab bills and 10% discount on practice insurance. These are designed to offer hundreds, if not thousands, in annual savings. The purpose of this members club is to not only boost your monthly income but also manage your outgoings as much as possible and therefore create more profit. To celebrate the launch of the Smart Money Members Club, and given that the CPD deadline is coming up soon, I've decided to offer the first month of this platform entirely for free. This offer will end in the coming weeks as soon as the current CPD cycle is up. To collect your CPD for this podcast episode using the Smart Money Members Club, feel free to use the link in the description of this podcast again.

Neel, 13m 22s:

Sorry, Adam, but um with and I've learned this, you know, I had to learn from scratch really, because you know I've got uh being a dentist, I asked all the stupid dentist questions and uh worked it out as a simpleton that different categories of dentists can go into different pots. So if you have someone with a million pounds worth of claims who's relatively high risk, you won't be put in the same pool of dentists as Joe Average. So their big claims don't hit our our premium so much. Whereas if you're mutual, everything's in one pot. So if the doctors or the surgeons or whoever has some big claims, it has to be shared among everybody. So I think the reason why we're cheaper is because we can put people into different products and and separate the risk out. Would you is that kind of right, Adam?

Adam, 14m 8s:

Yeah, I would agree. And um, I think over the years as well, some of the mutuals uh used to collect funds for the likes of doctors and GPs. Um what was it, four or five years ago? Four or five years ago, those GPs were uh indemnified by the NHS, so they lost a big pool of premium at the same time. At the same time, claims costs are going up. So I think there's possibly been a bit of balance in the books along the way as well.

Dr James, 14m 34s:

There we go. Okay, I think we've done myth number one to deaf, right, guys. Uh there's we've we've we've covered that one for sure. But listen, that was a juicy one, so it's it's it's definitely important that we did. Let's move on to myth number two.

Neel, 14m 48s:

Okay, let me think of one. Um as a dentist, um sometimes I need a bit of advice or a bit of help. It might not be a complaint, but I I kind of get a spider senses that something's happening that way. But I'd rather talk to my friends because I'm scared that if I talk to my indemnity, all happen is I'll just get my premium put up the next year.

Adam, 15m 8s:

So for some indemnity providers, uh this does carry additional cost next year. But I think most indemnifiers who are following good practice will encourage you to call your indemnity provider. Um, early notification and early advice usually results in a good outcome. So we don't if if you called us 20, 30 times in one year, we'd prefer that then you're not calling us at all when you might have a little worry here or there. Uh call us. You won't be you won't be punished on premium. It's good practice to do so.

Neel, 15m 41s:

I think we've also in one of the first and signed up for Jason's initiative about um not penalising people for getting advice.

Adam, 15m 50s:

Yes, that's right. Yeah, there's uh I think six or seven indemnity providers who are in that initiative who um yeah promise basically if if you call for advice, you're not gonna be uh you know, you're not gonna have your premiums hiked or any changes to your terms the next year. At the end of the day, the earlier you advise us, the earlier we can give advice and hopefully resolve any uh issue there may be.

Dr James, 16m 11s:

Nice. Yeah, because that is definitely something that I heard whispers about whenever I was working in the clinic, and I was never quite no one ever seemed really quite sure. Some people were like, Yeah, they do that 100%, you should avoid calling them, which is obviously completely counterproductive if you do have uh anything that smells like a complaint, uh, because you definitely need advice and you want guidance to mitigate it in the moment.

Adam, 16m 36s:

Um I'll put it a bit like this indemnity is your seatbelt, and the advice and the risk management is how you avoid the crash. So um always ask for advice.

Dr James, 16m 48s:

Yeah, boom, there we go. I love that analogy. I really, really, really do. That makes complete sense.

Neel, 16m 52s:

Although I'd be slightly worried if you're calling every day.

Dr James, 16m 57s:

Well, well, it's uh it's nice to know, I guess, that someone can, should they so should should should they wish, isn't it? That it's it's good that that's out there, but um, yeah, that might be an indicator of uh an indicator of something a little deeper going on. Anyway, who knows? It's not for us to say. Lovely job, Lee. Myth number three.

Neel, 17m 18s:

Another one I hear is that uh oh, you you you pay for what you get, and these insurance companies are are too cheap, and they'll only just put your price up once they've got you on board.

Adam, 17m 31s:

Yeah, that's uh yeah, that's a good question. I mean, we hear the same. Um, whether it's an existing client of ours or someone's come to us for a quotation, uh, they often say, Well, I've found this £300 cheaper elsewhere. Um, I'd often go back and just say, look, it's like anything, the devil's in the detail. Why is it cheaper? Um, are they picking up retroactive cover? So cover from the past, what is the basis of cover, claims made, claims occurrence. You know, sometimes there's even excesses involved, not with too many providers nowadays, but really, really dig down into the detail because that's where you'll find out why there's such a significant price difference.

Dr James, 18m 11s:

Any more to say on that one?

Neel, 18m 14s:

Um I think I think also we've got a three-year price protection and we've also got an 18-month policy. So that keeps things pretty regular, doesn't it?

Adam, 18m 24s:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, uh what we do is it's is you don't have to have it. Um you don't uh it's you're not sort of stuck with it for three years, but we're doing a long-term arrangement where for three years your price will stay exactly the same, of course, as long as you don't have uh terrible claims at that time, uh like anything. But um, and at the end of that period, we also get uh a number of three weeks cover up to six weeks free cover as well. So it's just rewarding uh your loyalty to us. Um and uh, you know, I don't think anybody else offers that kind of cover. So it's always looking at the detail and finding out what additionally that provider can offer offer you.

Dr James, 19m 2s:

Yeah. I mean, speaking from the dentist perspective, again, I mean, for me, it was I definitely got anxiety around about September time when I was like, man, how much is it gonna be this year? Because I literally I know it was gonna go up, but I I I wanted to know how much. Um so yeah, obviously that's that's a that's a good thing to know. And then just one quick thing on that. It does obviously your first few years, you know, it starts out, it's very cheap when you're an FD, right? And then it goes up, it goes up and then it kind of levels off, doesn't it? Good question on that. Typically, how many years into your career does it start to level off?

Adam, 19m 38s:

Uh usually three to five.

Dr James, 19m 40s:

Really? And then it's just it becomes a certain amount, and then it's usually in and around that amount for the rest of your career, provided.

Adam, 19m 49s:

So, you know, if you're a general dentist, you'll probably be sort of at that mark. And uh, if you go into implantology and you become, you know, you're doing 60-70% of your time doing implants, there's obviously going to be a slight increase there. But generally, as long as you're you uh doing sort of the same thing and you're not having uh loads of claims, then you'll be fine.

Dr James, 20m 10s:

Nice. All right then. Sounds good to me.

Neel, 20m 14s:

Just following on, Adam, youngsters' prices, especially with the mutuals, when they uh get them at the bar in the fifth year, are really quite low, and obviously then they they go up. That's not necessarily a reflection that they're lower risk, because you could almost argue they're higher risk. How much of it is the risk and how much of it is a loss leader that people use to try and get that long-term audience?

Adam, 20m 39s:

That's a good question, Neel. Um, I'm not sure I can answer that in too much detail because I'd be making it a bit of a guess. Um I might might tell someone after a yeah, uh a drink or two, but no, I wouldn't uh wouldn't like to comment on that one.

Dr James, 20m 52s:

There we go. No, it's it's it's an interesting one, is that for sure. Because I and that's funny, because I remember similar thing with income protection, right? It's like you can get income protection as a foundation dentist for 10 pounds, right? And then of course everybody forgets that they've got the the direct debit set up and it goes bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, like that. But anyway, not to go too far down that rabbit hole. Shall we move on? Number four.

Neel, 21m 15s:

I suppose the other one that we had, especially when we first started PDI and before BDA indemnity started, which changed the landscape a little bit, dentists were very mindful of insurance company that went bust and left everyone a little bit high and dry. Um, that doesn't really happen anymore. But Adam, what was the reason for that? They went into a they had an issue with a different market, didn't they?

Adam, 21m 37s:

Yeah, I think you're talking of St. Paul's.

Neel, 21m 39s:

Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

Adam, 21m 40s:

In the early 2000s. Um, yeah, effectively they they come into the market in on an insurance based product. Um, and short within about 18 months of the them setting up, um, the capacity, so effectively the insurer who sits behind the product pulled capacity, and at that time you didn't. Have another insurer who was effectively writing business within that market. Um, so it left a lot of individuals sort of left quite exposed. Since then, the insurance market in the indemnity field's matured. Um, there's probably 15 to 20 underwriters uh in the market, plus you have the FOS who will support you in the event of anything like that happening. But I mean, nowadays they're they're so highly regulated, the likelihood of that happening is minimal.

Neel, 22m 32s:

Yeah, I don't think the youngsters will remember that one, but it was probably in the you know first year or two that was uh one of the comments. Uh but yeah, it's a very different landscape now, isn't it?

Adam, 22m 40s:

Yeah, yeah, I think I think yeah, you're right. Probably about 10-15 years ago, there was a lot of skepticism about going into the insurance market, but you know, there's five or six insurance providers and offering dentists indemnity now. So um it's yeah.

Neel, 22m 55s:

And uh the good news, uh James, from our point of view, our retention rate is is super high. High 90s, Adam?

Adam, 23m 1s:

Yeah, yeah, we renew um, I think 97% of all our policies year on year. Um, so yeah, that's uh that's great news. Um, we'd still like to see more, but it's it's a good number.

Dr James, 23m 13s:

Nice. So low uh turn, I I think they call it in the the business world, don't they? But yes, anyway, uh well, certainly that's indicative uh uh whether or not someone likes the product, of course. The higher the lower the turn rate, the more uh people sort of satisfied with whatever product they're getting, um, is a is definitely the rule in the world of business. But yeah, no, that's fine. So number four, we have nailed, and now on to number five of these uh how can we say this pertinent myths that we're talking about before that are pervasive to this this industry that we need to debunk.

Neel, 23m 49s:

I suppose the other thing I hear when people leave a mutual is oh, are they gonna hold it against me? I'm scared that they're not gonna cover me in the path if I leave them. So there's a kind of fear factor of some people have of leaving the mutuals, feeling that because obviously the retro period is with that mutual, uh, that they're not going to be covered. But I think also, Adam, we do have a a clause for that as well.

Adam, 24m 15s:

Yeah. So yeah, there's kind of two parts to that. The if you leave effectively when you join a mutual, say you join the mutual in 2010, uh, they write the policy on a claims occurrence basis. So you should be covered to the time you leave them, no matter when the claim comes in for treatment. So if the claim for treatment came in now for a period back in 2015, because it's on a claims and currence basis, you should be covered. Um, however, you've still got the discretionary uh issue there. So what we do is we provide a retroactive date that if the uh mutual do not doesn't pick up the policy coverage for that period, our policy is step in. So you've not got that risk there.

Dr James, 24m 59s:

There we go. Short and sweet, short and sweet. Okay, cool. Well, I mean, guys, uh, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom on the podcast tonight. And I think that you know the message is to me, it's like whenever we do these podcasts, it's like, okay, it's not necessarily that we have to go with one person or another, but it's just let's make an educated choice as to what is best for us. And when you put the facts in front of somebody, then they can decide for themselves however that looks. And I, in my personal opinion, and I see this in finance all the time, I feel that if people operated out of perfect information, they would do a hell of a lot of stuff differently in their life. They really, really, really would. And the more we can share that information so people can make those perfect decisions that we're talking about, the better outcomes that we're gonna get. That's literally the mission of the Dentistry Invest platform and the Dentist Invest Podcast. Guys, let's shout out uh AMP. Where can people reach out to if they want to know more about anything that we said in the podcast today?

Neel, 25m 55s:

You can email me at neil at oldmed.co.uk or Facebook or Instagram or WhatsApp. Um people find me everywhere.

Dr James, 26m 4s:

Sure. And Adam soon for you?

Adam, 26m 7s:

Exactly the same, yeah. Uh my email is simply adam at olmed.co.uk. Um I'm not as prominent on uh social media as Neel but uh yeah, you can catch me on that email.

unknown, 26m 16s:

Okay.