Dr James, 1m 15s:

Today we're gonna talk about something we haven't covered for a while and then still that fuck out facts and all the things we need to think, but whenever it comes to standard facts, and I don't just mean that from the point of view of getting the fast number, what I mean is getting the number that you need to live on to as we die in happiness. If that is your ball, of course, there's multiple. We're gonna dig into that as the episode progressive. I'm joined today by Mr. Luke Hurley, co-founder of the Videre financial plan, and we're gonna be covering everything that I've just mentioned and more than closest episodes as ever. As ever, you can claim your CPD for this episode within the official Dentists Who Invest Smart Money Members Club. Smart Money Members Club also includes multiple mini courses and webinar series on finance for dentists, including how to become as tax efficient as possible, as well as understanding investing. All of this content counts as verifiable CPD, and you can download your certificates there and then upon completion of each lesson. In addition to this, we also include a whopping 10% discount on your dental indemnity and a 5% discount on lab bills for dental principals, amongst other perks and discounts for members. Please use the link in the description to claim your verifiable CPD for this episode. Luke, welcome back to the Dentists Who Invest Podcast. We have done similar-ish content to this over the years, but I think it's worth revisiting. And also, I also think it's worth saying we've never done an episode specifically dedicated to this exact subject, which is how can we do better collectively as dentists whenever it comes to exiting our dental practice, not just from the point of view of getting the highest number, but also thinking a little bit more laterally and without blinkers on, because the highest is not always the best. Would you agree?

Luke, 2m 59s:

Yeah, 100%. Um I think for us, the um the key is starting with the right question. So most people will jump straight in and uh will start wanting to know what their practice is worth, go out and get valuations. We think the process process should start with the question of what what do I need, you know, what what do I need from this process, from this exit. Um the sale price for us is is the output, it's not the starting point. So uh unless you know what you need, you can't necessarily judge the offer um and and how appropriate it is for you uh to make that transition, make that exit. Um, and equally, if you don't run the numbers, if you don't really know what you need from the process, then there's a chance that you'll either accept too little uh and you won't um fulfill your objective of financial independence, or you'll end up hanging around for too long. Uh, and possibly you could have pulled the trigger earlier and and um gone off and do uh do different things and have have some adventures. So for us, the the first question to ask is what you know, what do you need from this process rather than um what what's your practice worth? Uh and then from that everything flows. Um so I think the point of today is to go through that process of identifying what what that need is and how we do that.

Dr James, 4m 28s:

You know, can I just say something? And this is a little this is a little bit introspective, and it's related to finance, but again, it's looking at things a little bit more broadly than that, and that is so much of life, in my opinion, so much of success in life is being able to ask the right questions. And where your questions come from are your beliefs and opinions about the world, which is why education is so important. And I'll give you a really pertinent example on that. It's like, okay, cool. If you're thinking, if you're if you're the question that you're asking yourself is, okay, how can I get the very most money that I possibly can? Right, uh, well, then that can sometimes mean you're drawing out the exit from your business until much further down the line. And maybe you should be asking yourself, do I enjoy dentistry? Do I want to do less? Do I want to pull the trigger on this a little bit early from the point of view of my life earlier because of my lifestyle? And all of a sudden, just because you're shifting the question that you're asking yourself, you might be enabling yourself to be able to step away a lot more soon, even though your circumstances are exactly the same. But the problem with these limiting beliefs or these limiting questions is that we sometimes go through many years of our life without even necessarily questioning them because they're embedded in our subconscious as much as anything else. And I I do stuff like that daily, okay, where I'm like, I think this is how it is, therefore I'm asking myself, how can I do this? But that is actually based on so many false assumptions that if I knew and understood what those false assumptions were, I wouldn't ask that question anymore. And I'd probably get to where I want to go much faster. I know that's a little abstract, but I just think completely agree.

Luke, 6m 7s:

I think it's it's spot on. I think um you need to go through that that process, ask yourself those questions. It it feeds into everything, not just the set the sale price, it feeds into the deal structure, everything in terms of how you want to um go go through that process and what what good looks like for you. Um and the stakes are high, right? So we're talking significant sums of money. Um, I think the average sale now is about 1.3, 1.4 million pounds, uh last set of data I looked at. So this is a significant event for for most uh dental practice owners. Um and you don't want to be that person that spends 20, 30 years building something up uh to then spend 30 days planning planning the exit. Um I think it should be five years in advance, uh, I would say. Um okay, if you're within five years and you've not got five years, fine. But if you if you're looking at this and and you're kind of 10 years out, five years out, you've got plenty of time to really uh plan things and and optimize things before you do make the uh make the jump.

Dr James, 7m 14s:

Boom. Okay, great. Well that brings us to something that we were talking about off camera for a little bit, and that was your structure as to how you articulate these concepts to dentists and how we break it down. And one thing that we discussed was the three numbers and their pertinence to what we've just mentioned. Maybe you can elaborate a little bit more on that, look.

Luke, 7m 37s:

Yeah, sure. So for us, um, the first number uh to really get to grips with, and this is for everybody, uh, regardless of whether they're selling a dental practice or not, in truth, it's it's it's at the heart of financial planning and it's your lifestyle number. So it's how much um, you know, how much is enough to fund the life you actually want, and that is key for all planning. Um, so that's the first point. The second point is your legacy number, uh, which is really how much do you want to uh have uh for your family, um, you know, how much is enough to fulfill your objectives in relation to family members and and causes that you care about. Um, so what do you want that legacy to look like? The third for us is then the exit number. It's it's you know, it's the price, you know, how much does it need to be in order to fulfill one and two? Uh, and that's the whole point of the order is you should go one, two, and then three rather than three, and then you know, you go through the process of setting. And oh, is this enough money? I'm not so sure. Uh, and I've met lots of clients where we're actually taking them on post-sale, and then we go through that process. But actually, in an ideal world, we're meeting them in the lead up to that, in the lead up to that exit, so we know that the numbers are on point.

Dr James, 8m 50s:

Sure, and quick thing on that I was talking to a friend the other day, a practice broker, and they were telling me about how they had a client who had a friend, the client's friend or I think close acquaintance sold their practice for five million, and this guy just wouldn't accept selling his practice for anything less because he just wanted to be able to go down the pub and also said he sold his practice for five million. And it's just like, what sort of logic is that? Like, you have no idea about all of these concepts and all of these numbers and how they play into this, uh, and whether or not that's sensible for you, and potentially prolonging uh your your your necessity to work clinically, which fine, he may have enjoyed that, you know. But all I'm I'm just calling, I'm just wanting to highlight there how it's so important to define these things rather than just be like, okay, cool, this is my one metric.

Luke, 9m 40s:

But yeah, maybe we don't just just on that, James, because uh that is I think really at the core of everything we do as a firm. We have three three principles ultimately. Time is your most precious resource, happiness is the ultimate goal, and money is is a tool and an enabler. You know, it's fuel for the journey. Um, and if you're anchored to a certain number um because of the wrong reasons, then you know that that that loses sight of those things. Um, life is extremely short, it's not rehearsal, make the most of it. Uh, and if you're holding out just because you want to achieve a headline number, that's that's possibly not the most advanced form of thinking.

Dr James, 10m 19s:

The the thing is, it's actually has a huge knock-on effect on others around you because that guy might have kids, right? And he's like, Okay, cool. Well, I'm sacrificing all this time for my kids just so I have bragging rights to sit alongside my friends, and it's just like, come on, you know. Um, we need to not just reduce this to uh you know, kind of uh max, you know, big big swinging uh uh so conversation, uh, shall we? Everybody can find the everybody flips out the back. Everybody can find the backs.

Luke, 10m 49s:

Yeah, yeah. The um the other side of it, I guess, is that you know, we're we're we we have businesses, we're not suggesting in any way, shape, or form that you shouldn't want to achieve the absolute absolute maximum value for that sale. And that's that's a different conversation. We fully believe that you need to go through that process and get every penny that your your business is worth. Um, and if you give yourself the lead-in, the five-year um run-in, then you you've got plenty of time to optimize that and get maximum value for it. Um, but it's just I think what we're saying is take a step back, look at the big picture. If you're not enjoying what you're doing, then maybe it's time to have that that that conversation and and kick off that process.

Dr James, 11m 33s:

Great. Let's is now a good time to get really granular on those three numbers then. Maybe talk about the permutations of them.

Luke, 11m 40s:

Yeah, we can break them down so that the lifestyle number um really feeds into financial independence, financial freedom, whatever you want to call it, work optional. It's um it's it's the key number ultimately. Uh, how much money do you need for the rest of your life? Uh, we tend to break that down into categories. So I tend to think of your essentials, your your basic living costs, running the house, your utilities, your council tax, uh, your food bills, all of those things. Um, then I tend to think of discretionary spending, the fun stuff, um, going out, enjoying yourself, living life to the full, um, not being worried about going out for meals, going on nice holidays, all of those things. But they are discretionary. If you needed to, you could rein it back in. Uh, the third category I tend to think of is family support. Um, and the fourth is like a resilience buffer. So it's just having some money there for a rainy day, give you peace of mind. Um, we also tend to think in terms of milestones. So there might be one-off items of expenditure, there might be some house improvements, there might be um money going on, different projects. Um, that's fine. We would always want to plan for those. Uh, and what we tend to do with a client, and I as anyone I suggest does this themselves, is draw up a timeline of possible events. I use the word possible on purpose because we don't know what the future brings. But if you can put some stakes in the ground, some markers, even if it's just some guesses as to when things might happen, that's going to enable you to have a robust plan. Um, and I've said it many times, I've said it on this podcast in the in the past, my own milestones tend to be around my kids, for example. You know, I've I might have a stake in the ground for when I might want to help them get on the housing ladder for when I want, might want to help them through university. All of those things need to be planned for and costed up as part of your uh your your number. So we do it with software, okay? We model everything using uh advanced software and it's like lifetime cash flow, tax optimized, stress tested, you run it to age 100. Um, but you can start the process with a a pen and paper, uh, and I suggest that that people do that. Um and it's just really about us asking the question and and and hopefully the output of the process is answering that question of whether you have enough. Um uh ultimately there's there's only really three outcomes again. This is a phrase I often use. Uh three outcomes not having enough, in which time in which case if you if you've got enough time, you can fix it. Getting it just right, and then the third category, which is having too much, and that's uh where I spend a lot of my time at the moment, is is dealing with clients that have substantial estates, they've done very well for themselves, um, been very successful in their careers, then maybe they've exited businesses, maybe that maybe they haven't, uh, and they've actually got an abundance of wealth, that they're then looking to transition tax efficiently to future generations. Because if you don't do that, then you run the risk of passing a significant chunk of it to uh to HMLC. So um three outcomes go through the process, do the planning, uh, and at the core of it is is lifestyle. Um one other thing on that, actually, with the with the timeline, I see it a lot. I call it kind of there's a there's a bridge gap sometimes. If somebody's done a lot of NHS work, they might have an NHS pension, for example, and that might not correctly align with when they want to uh retire. And so doing the plan and really looking at lifetime cash flow and lifetime income is key to ensure that you know you can bridge that gap and still enjoy the retirement that you're that that you're planning. Um, so yeah, do do the homework, do the planning, um, and and really get to grips with the the lifestyle number.

Dr James, 15m 23s:

Magic. And that leads us on to the legacy number.

Luke, 15m 28s:

Yeah, so the legacy number, um, three questions really um to whom, how much, and when. Um, that's how I tend to think of inheritance tax planning. Um, if you don't decide, then the system, the tax system is going to decide for you. Uh, and you stand to um pay your lifetime silent partner, as I like to call them, HMRC. Um, the silent partner you you never really wanted, uh 40% of uh of the balance over certain thresholds. At the moment, the nil rate band is £325,000. It's been that way since 2009, um, which is incredible, really, that that's been frozen for for so long. Uh, anything over that per person is is potentially subject to inheritance tax. Um, there is a rate uh uh residential nil rate band on your main residence of £175,000 per person. So some people will go from 325 up to £500 per person for a couple, that's obviously a million. Um but that requires leaving your main residence to a direct descendant, and it's also tapered over £2 million. So if you're dealing with a larger estate of assets that you're not gifting or you don't have a structured gifting program for, then you actually run the risk of losing that uh allowance as well. Um that that that resident residence nil rate band. Um there's also something to be very, very mindful of when you are a business owner, which is what I refer to as the cliff edge. Um when you've got a trading business, then um you qualify for business relief, um, which uh from April 2026 has been capped at 2.5 million, uh, but it's still there. So for a couple, potentially five million pounds of business assets, trading uh businesses would qualify for business relief, which gives it IHT protection. The moment you sell your practice uh is the moment when that drops back into your estate for IHT calculations, and so it's incredibly important to do that planning and really know what that what that looks like and what the impact of that will be. Um so on completion day that that shelter's gone and a large portion of cash is now going to be exposed to to 40% tax. Um so yeah, significant planning needed.

Dr James, 17m 55s:

Interesting. However, am I right in saying that with adequate planning, what in your opinion, let's say that that business, you know, is obviously liquidated into cash, right? Uh is it possible for that, let's use that five million as an example, uh, in cash form to be fully sheltered if you're clever enough? UK dentists, Dennist Who Invests now has an official platform where you can learn about finance and obtain UK compliant, verifiable CVD at the same time. The only platform that exists on which you can do both. The Smart Money Members Club has hundreds of hours of mini courses, webinar series, and live day recordings on all things finance slash tax efficiency for UK dentists. This includes complete courses on how tax works for UK dentists, finance so that you can invest and grow your own money, business so you can improve your profitability as an associate or principal, and for those out there that want it, there's also a mini course and how you can responsibly enter the crypto space using measured amounts of capital. I've gathered this content from the best of the best I could find in each respective area so that you know that this is how people at the forefront of each field advise their clients. The Smart Money Members Club also contains discounts on common things that UK dentists need to pay for on a regular basis. This includes a whopping 10% discount on dental indemnity, the offer to beat your income protection deal no matter what you're paying, and for the principals out there, 5% discount on lab bills and 10% discount on practice insurance. These are designed to offer hundreds, if not thousands, in annual savings. The purpose of this members club is to not only boost your monthly income but also manage your outgoings as much as possible and therefore create more profit. To celebrate the launch of the Smart Money Members Club, and given that the CPD deadline is coming up soon, I've decided to offer the first month for this platform entirely for free. This offer will end in the coming weeks as soon as the current CPD cycle is up. To collect your CPD for this podcast episode using the Smart Money Members Club, feel free to use the link in the description of this podcast.

Luke, 20m 28s:

Really, if you get ahead of it, know what your roadmap is. There's lots of other things that factor into that health and everything else. So it's a it's a detailed conversation. Um the sooner you start that the better. Uh, but you know, if if uh if you're leaving it to the last minute, then there's a there's a good chance that it's it's that it's too late. Um, I do get approached by people who are um you know further down their retirement journeys in the in their 80s, for example, and it's a lot harder to to put steps in place to mitigate inheritance tax. Um the cleanest and the simplest way to deal with inheritance tax, ultimately, uh the cheapest way to deal with it uh and the most tax-efficient way to deal with it is to simply gift those assets to the people that you want to inherit them and then live seven years. Problem solved. But uh obviously there are concerns around asset protection, there's concerns around children's uh own affairs in terms of marriages and everything else. If a marriage was to break down after those gifts have taken place, there's there's complexities there and and and potential negative outcomes. So yeah, it's a it's a 3D jigsaw. That's often why other structures are used, um like trusts and family investment companies and and so on, and a combination of the two to try and uh protect those assets um and keep them within the the within the family bloodline. Um so, yes, to answer your question, there are things you can do. I would also say as a business owner, if you can have those conversations before exit, there's actually some stuff you can do prior to an exit which may or may not be suitable for you around trusts. Um so it's worth definitely opening those conversations prior to an exit. Certainly, uh any conversations around structure and and tax planning with an exit should really be happening at least two years before. Um, and certainly if you've exchanged contracts, then some of the stuff is definitely off the table. Um but I would say a minimum of two years prior to prior to uh an exit completion is is um is is is right.

Dr James, 22m 44s:

Yes, that was actually the next thing I was gonna ask. Is there an ideal time frame in which you know that virtually everything realistic can be implemented within uh prior to that exit, which you've just articulated? And then the second thing was I think that's one of the sound bites from this podcast uh right here, which is what you said earlier, which that which is that inheritance tax is potentially an optional tax or virtually always an optional tax, providing that there's been enough planning and thought uh went into that event. Beforehand. So yeah, that's definitely that's that's going to be a clip from this podcast for sure. Because I think that was very uh impactful. Uh yeah, I guess we should round off by covering the third number then, which is uh let me see here, the exit number specifically.

Luke, 23m 30s:

Yeah, the exit number really just pulls in. It's it's you know, for us, it's derived from the previous two. Uh it's what you really need to achieve. Uh uh and it should feed into those negotiations. It's not necessarily the same as price. Um, your practice could be worth significantly more than the number that you know you need. Um, but then you go into those negotiations in a in an informed position. Um it also needs to, once you know your lifestyle number, your uh your legacy number, your exit number also needs to take account of your other assets, right? So your business isn't going to be your only asset. You might have uh pensions, investments, property, uh, and a variety of other assets that we need to factor in to calculate how much is needed from the practice cell. We actually reverse engineer it. So we start with all of those things, and then we can use the software to tell us what the number needs to be to bridge the gap. And often it is significantly below, more often than not, the the uh value of a client's practice. Um, and so they they fall immediately into the camp of of the too much. Um, so yeah, uh it's um it it's it's a uh calculation to be done, doing a full analysis of um all of somebody's financial affairs. It's not straightforward, um, but it's really impactful when you come to then go through the process of selling the practice. Uh if you know your number, you can walk away. Um, it's a massive lever when it comes to the negotiations, being able to walk away. Um, it enables you to plan that runway, what we'd say, those small structural changes in the lead up, uh, enables you to plan your tax out, um and and have the conversations if needed with with the right professionals, tax advisors, and and and so on. Um, it might be once you know that you you have more than enough that uh it brings that conversation uh about sooner and you start that process quicker because you've got things that you want to go and do. Um or it might be the opposite, it might just give you the peace of mind to stage your exit and phase your exit. Um so yeah, for us it's it's it's key. Uh and it's um it's actually quite a rewarding piece of work that we do for clients.

Dr James, 25m 57s:

There we go. And you know what? That is actually the next thing that I was going to ask was just a little bit more information on the tax side of things. We've covered inheritance tax. Uh, maybe we could look at it more broadly from the point of view of uh BADR uh slash capital gains and any other taxes that might be relevant. Any hot facts or tips that you can give us on that front? How much can those be medicated, if at all, by planning beforehand?

Luke, 26m 26s:

Planning beforehand, certainly. Um I think on um so if we if we break it down, your main tax on a business transaction like this is is ultimately capital gains tax, right? So um and and the headline rate now, as that's speaking, August 26, um, 24%. Um business asset disposal relief now, um, which is kind of a 1 million limit per person with a reduced capital gains tax charge. Uh that charge is 18%. Um, so those numbers have gone up significantly in recent years. I'm not sure they're going to come back down anytime soon. Um, but benefiting from business asset disposal relief can save a reasonable amount of cash uh in tax. Um it might be though that you decide with the help of tax advisors to structure things in a different way and keep that money within a corporate structure uh post-sale. Um there are reasons for doing that um from an inheritance tax perspective and kind of a legacy perspective. So those conversations need to be had. Um so in which case you won't be selling um everything down into your into cash in your personal name, and you won't be paying capital gains tax in that in that sense. Um so, yes, planning um definitely important. Um, I would say inheritance tax features into that. I think capital gains tax and inheritance tax need to be in the same conversation when it comes to planning a business exit. Um, and as I said, the two-year rule is really key on that, I think. Uh, and so is getting the right professionals in to have those conversations. We kind of think of our role in that as being the quarterback as such, like bringing in the right people to have those technical conversations where appropriate. And it's not always appropriate. Sometimes the best answer is actually just to sell the practice as is, pay the capital gains tax, and have that money um brought back into your um personal estate to then fund your retirement. Um, sometimes that's the best option. Other times um we see where the shares of a of a of a of a trading business have been put into a holding company structure, and that holding company structure might be in trust. Um, and it means then when you're selling the trading company or companies, if you've got more than one practice, that money is being pushed up um to the holding company, and the holding company is still uh sat in trust. So planning opportunities, um, advice needed, definitely advice needed, not straightforward. Lots of caveats and nuances that need to be uh understood. Um and uh yeah, um planning is is as ever is key.

Dr James, 29m 13s:

One thing it's worth mentioning as well, for those who don't know, in case anybody out there has missed this headline, uh pensions and uh and you know, just to uh say specifically SIPS uh and the NHS pension are now in your estate, right? So they're no longer IST exempt, right?

Luke, 29m 33s:

Yeah, so from next April. Um next April, beg your pardon. Yeah, no, uh nearly there. Um the that's massive for us as financial planners because for quite some time those investment-based SIPs, what we would refer to as defined contribution pensions, money purchase pensions, they are outside of the estate for inheritance tax. From next year, there's the potential to suffer double taxation on those POPs, and they go from being possibly the last uh wrapper that we would access for a withdrawal strategy, uh an income strategy, uh, to one of the first, because you can't gift a pension. Um, and so there's every chance that you're gonna want to kind of drain that money out um uh over time, tax efficiently, to ensure that you don't die with a with a large um personal pension sat there, subject to significant amounts of tax. Because the way the tax works on pensions historically um in in recent years has been if you die before 75, then who you pass that pension on to, uh, I mean, there's a more detail to this, but in in in simple terms, uh, whoever you pass that on to would would not have to pay income tax on that money if you die before 75. If you die after 75, they would pay tax at their marginal rate. So they'd pay income tax on it when they take the money out of the pension. That is seemingly staying in place, which means that uh on your pension you run the risk of having to uh on on death pay the 40% inheritance tax, and then who you've passed on to, if you if you're over the age of 75, having to pay income tax as well, which could be leaving you with you know 36p or leaving your children with 36p and a pound, uh, is not where you want to be. Uh, and that's where we again can add value as financial planners in terms of mapping that out and making sure that there's a clear strategy there to to help mitigate that over time. Um, so yeah, really important to get to grips with that. And we could probably spend an entire podcast delving into some of the changes that are coming in next year, because there are there are others, you know, around ISIS and various other things that we might we might want to pick up separately.

Dr James, 31m 46s:

Yeah, that's that's that's a podcast waiting to happen right there. And just a quick question almost to just understand this before we move on. If anybody's in that position, or let's say somebody listened to this podcast is 60, right? Uh and they could make withdrawals from their pension now, should they so wish, okay? Uh basically, is there anything that person can do to mitigate this impending change? Or are they in the same boat as everybody else? We just have to suffer and endure this. Is there anything anybody can do who's kind of high-and-dry, who already has their money inside a huge pension but wants to avoid these incoming changes, or do we just have to accept it and plan as best we can?

Luke, 32m 30s:

It's it there's not a lot you can do other than have a really robust income strategy plan for for the pension as part of the wider financial plan. You may want to revisit your nominations in terms of who's gonna benefit from that pension again that we're doing a bit of work around that with clients. Um, so yeah, the it's it should just be part of the wider plan. And um the thing with financial planning is it's not a one-off uh process, you know, it's an evolving process. The rules change literally every year. Uh, and so we're constantly evolving and adapting a financial plan. It's an organ, you know, the the value is not in the plan, it's in the planning. That's the expression I quite like. Um, and so it's having that framework where you're making those decisions every year uh to ensure you're on the right path. And that's very much what what we do.

Dr James, 33m 19s:

Smashing. All right. Well, I like to make these podcasts as impactful and powerful as possible and give people say it is almost like action points or a little bit of a rundown of everything that we've covered. So if we were to do that and pull it all together and put it into a little bit of a timeline for people who are listening to this podcast by way of what they should look out for, key dates and maybe even key actions that they can take at those dates, how might that look?

Luke, 33m 47s:

Yeah, I think um the runway, uh, you know, how in an ideal world, and I I fully accept that um some people listening may just be in the position where they're they're near at the point of already wanting to sell and they don't want to wait five years. I get I get that. So, but the the runway really is set your numbers, uh work out what your structure looks like um in terms of dealing with the tax, get those conversations underway as soon as possible. Um strengthen the practice, uh, and there's lots of ways you can do that um to optimize the value that you're gonna get from that, um, from that sale. Do your tidying up, you know, the DD file is is is gonna look at everything. Um, so make sure that you you've got everything neat and tidy uh as best possible. Um, and then get the right team in place, you know, get the right accountant in place, get the right solicitor in place, get a good financial planner, get a good sales agent, bring them all together, um, make sure that they are aligned with your interests and enabling you to go into that process uh from as informed a position as possible. Um and then yeah, um I think you're you're you're in a good in a good spot um to recap for us the numbers, the three numbers lifestyle, legacy, exit, um, lifestyle and legacy numbers first, and then work out your exit number, factor in all your other assets and resources. Um have a target sale price that's based on you know facts and and needs um and not not just uh a number plucked out of thin air. Um don't leave it as a a last-minute negotiation. Um don't start that process out of desperation, I would say, is is another thing that I was planning to mention. Um what I mean by that is if you're making the decision to sell because you're having a terrible, terrible month, you know, everything is going wrong right now in the in the practice, it's it's it's hard work, it's stressful, you're having sleepless nights, that's not the point at which you should be deciding to sell your practice. Um, and if you go into those negotiations and start that process from a place of desperation, you're gonna be in a much weaker position than if you've dealt with those issues, taken a step back and done the planning right, and go into that process. Um, from that position, you're gonna be in a much stronger negotiating position. Um, so that that was something uh I wanted to just to throw in. Um and the final thing actually that I wanted to just drop in, uh drop into the conversation is we've talked a lot about planning the numbers, planning the exit, uh, the financial side of things. Do not forget about the other side of it, which is you should really be, if if this is a retirement play, it's not always a retirement play, but you should be having something to move on to. Um we said earlier, life is short, it's not rehearsal. One of the fundamental things we need as human beings is purpose. And what you see when somebody, not just with a practice sale, but from a retirement, is it's a big shift, it's a big life shift, a big life transition. And there's uh the initial burst of um excitement and going out and enjoying yourself in the months after. But soon there will be a time when there's a point of reflection. Um, and it's key that that process has been managed and planned out because it can be quite a shock to someone's um identity and and who they are. Uh, so we we encourage clients and we go through a process to look at the bigger vision as well, what a good life looks like as part of that, not just what good numbers look like, what does a good life look like? Uh and that should be right at the core of a financial plan as well, that vision for the future. Um, so I think that's that that's um well worth mentioning. Probably a good good place to draw things to a close.

Dr James, 37m 45s:

Yeah, sure. So I guess another good summary for this podcast uh would be that it really all stems from figuring out what that number is, which is derived from your lifestyle and other factors, because that is the sort of thing that can permit you to start giving yourself the space and ability and permission to retire uh sooner versus uh fixating on just juicing it as high as possible, as in those examples earlier, or at the very least having a conversation about it, because who knows what you might find. You don't know what's in the side of a door until you open it. And I think that that's a really powerful thing to remember. And I know that I think it's fair to say that whenever it comes to the financial planning side of things, that really a good financial planner should pay for themselves and then some. And I know that you were we mentioned Vidair earlier, which is obviously the company that we've co-founded uh together, which is a financial planning firm. And I know that that is specifically designed with dentists in mind whenever it comes to these sorts of decisions.

Luke, 38m 50s:

Yeah, you know, we're we're you know, dentists are a specialism, and we've been working with dentists. I've been working with dentists for for over 15 years now. Uh, I know the space. Um, and the way that we've set this company up is is to be planning at the at the at the heart of it. You know, where I would refer to us as planners, we're not product advisors. We can do we deal with the product side of it, uh, we do a really good job of it. Um, funds and the actual assets that the the exactly the the investment piece, the pensions, all of those things, um, all of those financial products, they're tools for us. They, you know, really at the core of it should be the plan. Uh, no plan, no portfolio. Um, so we do all of that. It's planning led, it's flat fee, which is very unusual um uh for for firms doing what we do. We don't charge a percentage of of uh the money that we look after for clients. We charge flat fees, uh, which is really appealing to many. Um so well worth the conversation on on that side of things alone. Um, and what do we do? Well, we kind of build those numbers for you. We model things, we stress test them, uh, it's your plan, it's bespoke to you. Uh, and it's uh it's a really rewarding process that goes right from what does good look like through to how can we get you there as efficiently um as as possible.

Dr James, 40m 10s:

Amazing. So, look, if anybody listening to the podcast today wants to get in touch with you, how are they best off by you? I know that you are obviously present on the Dentists Who Invest Facebook group uh under your uh full name, which is Luke Hurley, anywhere else that they might be best able to find you?

Luke, 40m 27s:

Um send us an email, hello at viderefinancial.com, visit the website, um, find us online, pop us a message, uh however you want to go about that.