Dr James, 1m 15s:

What is up everybody? This is an extra successful gentleman who has been extremely successful in the world sensing results in humble and then my favorite type of people. His name is Mr. Kaival Patel, and he is the owner and founder of Kana Health Group, which I've seen a lot about on social media. So we're gonna be getting into that journey and the learnings and the lessons and what that is. As ever, you can claim your CPD for this episode within the official Dentists Who Invest Smart Money Members Club. Smart Money Members Club also includes multiple mini courses and webinar series on finance for dentists, including how to become as tax efficient as possible, as well as understanding investing. All of this content counts as verifiable CPD, and you can download your certificates there and then on completing beach vesting. In addition to this, we also include a whopping 10% discount on your dental indemnity and a 5% discount on lab bills for dental principals, amongst other perks and discounts for members. Please use the link in the description to claim your verifiable CPD for this episode.

Dr Kaival, 2m 26s:

I am amazing, James. Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I'm really excited to be here and I hope that I can provide um any of your listeners or or anybody uh uh even one nugget of goodness or help. Um so yeah, thank you so much for having me on. Really appreciate it.

Dr James, 2m 42s:

Hey, listen, absolute pleasure, mate. And I love these episodes because what they tend to become or what they tend to be is more or less biographics, effectively, of what people have achieved. And I'm sure that there's gonna be a lot to talk about on that front today. But anyway, Kaival, I'm very conscious this is your first time on the Dentists Who Invest podcast. So if we were happy, if you were happy to do a little bit of a high-level bio, something along those lines, and then we can get into your journey and kind of health group and what that is, because it's downward practice, but it's also a whole lot of other things as well, which we're gonna reveal in just a moment. So if you're happy to do a bio, that might be a good way to kick things off.

Dr Kaival, 3m 18s:

Yeah, so um, so my wife, Srina, and I, we're we're the uh, yeah, you're right, the founders and owners of the Kana Health Group, uh, which is a group of practices based in Milton Keynes and Bedford. Um, we've also got a teaching academy uh called the Kana Academy, where we have an aesthetic and restorative diploma for dentists, um, which will be progressing to um courses for therapists, um, hygienists, nurses, um, all in um hopefully in the next sort of 12 to 24 months. Um, also a business and management course um as well. So um, yeah, we're we're we're basically Milton Keynes and um we've been loving it for uh a few years now.

Dr James, 4m 2s:

Awesome. Well, here's the thing. I'm just curious, you know, whenever it comes to your journey and whenever it comes to kind of health group, and this is something that we were talking about off-camera, whenever you get into the world of being a principal and running a dental practice, and I've had people like this on the podcast as well, they just keep going in that area and then they get they get their dirty dental practice or something along those lines, and it's amazing, you know. And what I'd love to learn about is was your mindset whenever it come to you came to you deciding right we're actually going to expand a little bit beyond just purely being a principal in the conventional sense and also have courses and everything along those lines, but we'll come back to that anyway. Kaival, let's talk about your journey. Yeah, you qualified from dentistry 2007, you told me earlier. 2008. Oh, 2008. One year out.

Dr Kaival, 4m 53s:

Yeah, yeah, one year out. One year one year out. What's the year between friends?

Dr James, 4m 57s:

Oh, what is the year between friends? 12 months, they go fast. Anyway, but yeah, so you qualified in 2008. And did you always want to be a principal? Did you always want to build an empire? Or you know what? Things around about that era for me are a little hazy, so you might even remember, but I thought I'd ask a question anyway.

Dr Kaival, 5m 13s:

Yeah, I think it's strange. So I think um I different aspects of my career, of my life, um, I've just wanted different things. So when I qualified, um, so I qualified from Manchester, love Manchester, um, great sort of party town uh or city. Um, yeah, had a amazing friends and everything, but I always knew I wanted to come back home, which is Milton Keynes. Um, so um found a VT job in in Northampton and then had my one and only job interview after that with a with a chap called Rescue, um, who had a practice in Wellingborough, which is near near Northampton. Uh, and and actually I learned a lot in my time as an associate. Um, you know, so I had a big sort of NHS component there, lots of UDAs. Um, but I I used that time to progress my skills. So I had a I did an implants master's degree, um, I learned sedation in design, all these things. But what I think I learned the most is I was in this environment where Rush used to bring speakers into the place and he used to have us collaborate together, lovely social environment as well. So, you know, like dentistry is in in theory a really lonely place. You normally it's you and your nurse in a box um for however many hours a day. Um, whereas this sort of community aspect, and he only did it in sort of, he had, I think, three sort of sites or or two sites based over three locations. Um, but he did it in a really, really nice way. And I think that that's what I sort of learned. And I always felt that that was where I wanted to take my career. I just didn't know how. Um for a long time, really. Um, so then um, yeah, I met um, or I was I was sort of uh an associate there for a number of years, uh knew that I wanted something, and I think we were speaking off air, and we both have this itch. Um, and I'm sure you can get cream for it, but um, but the actual itch is to to go and do something, you know, and and I always never never really knew what I wanted to do. I always knew I just wanted to progress and and you know, do something, really. Um and then I I married a dentist, uh Shrina, my wife. Now, and when we were getting married, actually, we were we we thought, well, we're we're both dentists, and the parents were in the back of our mind as well, and in the areas that you're both dentists, you should, you know, you it makes sense to own a dental practice. Um we thought, yeah, yeah, obviously that makes makes sense. Um, and you know, don't do that. Don't do that as your plan of action. You gotta plan a little bit more um than that. But whereas we thought, well, yeah, we're both dentists, we're gonna own a practice, that's gonna be life. Um, and actually we we found a practice when we were getting married, and we were due to complete on that practice two weeks before the wedding day. Um, so it was it was a crazy sort of time of our lives. Um, but then actually that practice ended up falling through because the the guy selling it had set up another site uh on the other side of town and was asking all his patients to to move over to the new site, which is a bit naughty. Um and we we found out on the grapevine, uh, but literally two weeks before the wedding day was going to complete, and it was two weeks before that that we found all of this out. So we had to we've gone through the whole process, whole due diligence, legals, everything, spent a lot of money. Um, but we had to bail out um, you know, at that time. Um, so that was our sort of first intake into potential practice ownership. But I think at that point, you know, when you're going through the due diligence, you have all these plans and aspirations of what you're gonna do to the new place and how you're gonna take your own stamp there and everything else. Um, and we knew that, okay, well, we wanted to own that practice. Um, so went through probably another dozen or so site visits, different practices, put a few offers in different practices. Uh, none of it came to any avail. Um, and then found this one place, beautiful building in Milton Keynes, big place, um, massive car park, uh, really old established list. I loved it and went to go see it, got along really well with the owners, and put in the offer, and I thought, well, this is it. And it got rejected as well. So this was in 2014. Um, but then I was on holiday a few months later, and you know what? By that time, I've just given up because I've seen so many places, I've I've you know went through all this process, you get excited so many times, just giving up. Um, but I but I on the off chance, I was on holiday um and I just pinged them an email and said, look, how's things going with the sale? Um, hope you guys are well. Um, and they they came back to me and said, Well, actually, the the people buying it, um, the finance isn't seemingly going through, or there was some issue with the with the sale. So uh I was in Dubai, I think, and I I I called my um the the the bank, the the bank manager that was helping us for the previous sale that fell through. So he already knew us. We already had a relationship. I said, Look, I need a letter showing that I'm good for the money for this offer. I'm good, yeah. Send me that letter and I'm gonna email it over to them. I emailed it over to them and they accepted the offer. And a few months later, we we had the first practice in 2015. So yeah, that's a little bit of how it all started.

Dr James, 10m 35s:

I I you know I love stuff like that. It's all about opening doors, isn't it? You know, because that email has a little bit of a dice roll, just like, hey, I'm here, how's it going? Something along those lines. And that's the thing about um, I heard a saying the other day, hopefully I can remember this correctly. Something along the lines of the thing about the thing about opportunities is they look like risk at the time. It's only in rear view, the rear view mirror that you realize your opportunities. And this is the thing, you know. So that was a huge opportunity because it led to such amazing things, but buying a practice, naturally risky. Have you always been so risky? Have you always had that sort of character? You know, you like to roll a dice sort of thing, or was that like a skill you had to build with time? Have you always had that element to your persona? Just curious.

Dr Kaival, 11m 14s:

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, I have. And and actually that's why Shrina is my my you know, Ying to the Yang really. So she's very risk-averse. Um, and and she's the one that will sense check things that I'm, you know, looking into. And but also I think as time's gone on, you know, it's a case of, well, you know, Kaival, if you believe in something, you dream in something, you're gonna make it happen. So, you know, there is that sort of freedom with it. But obviously, it happens over time. You know, at that point, we've got nothing. Um, we we were, she was just expecting our first uh child. Um, and um, but you know, we don't have the funds behind us, we didn't have tons of savings or anything like that, you know. Um, we didn't come from money in terms of family, um, which always there to support us, but it wasn't that, you know, um, that sort of uh, you know, safety blanket there. So everything had to, had to, had to sort of work, you know, for it to have and you had to go into it 100%. You know, you couldn't be half-assed with it because you're not gonna get anywhere.

Dr James, 12m 12s:

And I actually think that that's the thing that sometimes makes or breaks the risk, the the the the thing that you've invested in, so to speak, is how much you believe in it, right? And it doesn't mean that it is gonna pan out, but it gives it the best chance possible. And that's why not to get too ethereal and philosophical. But even if you just bring it right back to how strong your convictions are, that can actually give you the greatest likelihood of succeeding. And again, not to get too ear ethereal as well. So whether you win or lose, the opportunity pans out, it's the things that you learn that will then be useful to you later in life, and then the next opportunity that comes along. So you're always winning if you make it about the learnings in a way, anyway. Anyway, okay, so you got the first practice. Yeah, you agree with me?

Dr Kaival, 12m 53s:

With me? Yes, 100% right. 100% right. You are, yes, yeah.

Dr James, 12m 56s:

That's what gets me fired up right there. Big time, man. You always make it about the learning, you always win in, man. Always winning. Anyway, so got the first practice and got it up and running. Did it go smoothly? Did it not go smoothly? How did that look?

Dr Kaival, 13m 13s:

Yeah, um, so made every every mistake, Gary, James. Literally every mistake. So it was a massive place, several surgeries. We had no idea about the business side of dentistry. Um, and um, and the aim was basically big place, big patient base. I I was really into implants at that point, done the done that you know degree in it. And um, and the plan was for me to be a bit of a nomad. So working between whatever there was spare space in the surgeries and just just do the implant side of things, sedation uh and invisalign, you know, short-term orthodontics. Um, because they didn't do any of that in that place. So that's what where the big potential was in this, in the practice is they just they they didn't do anything um higher end. Um so that was gonna be the aim. Um but but ultimately, and I I was so enthusiastic. So even before we bought the practice, I bought a C B C T machine, right? So it's there, ready, ready to sort of go in. By bought, I've got the finance agreed, and everything is ready to sort of move in. So literally week one, where you know, ready to sort of go, bought the practice, got the keys, and I'm I'm wanting to install this C B C T machine. Where the practice has probably not done anything in like 10 years, you know, and then there's me suddenly um wanting to get a C B C T machine, get everything in there going and change the whole place up. Um, and these all the dentists there were probably on the latter stage of their career. Um, and it was a complete, you know, complete disparity between me and what me and Trina wanted to do there and and where they were in their career. And then gradually I sort of got ground down because it felt like I was always on this sort of uphill, you know. Anything cool I did, uh new uniform, new equipment, and you know, I wanted all these tech stuff and whatever else. Um, but I just didn't have you know the team that wanted it to. Support. Um support and they just went on the same page. And they were not bad people, they're brilliant dentists, you know, had lovely patient bases, but there was it it was completely just not on that same path. Um, and I think that's what I learned the most in the in in those first few years is actually um, you know, if I have that vision and if I have that pathway, then I need the team. It's not it can't just be me in a practice wanting to make it happen. I have to have the people around me um to do it. And and I I did a sort of article recently about squat practices versus um buying existing practices. And that's the big downside to an existing practice sometimes is you you're inheriting a team that already have a different sort of culture and believe, whereas the squat practice, you can get that going from from day one.

Dr James, 15m 56s:

Well, just to interject uh slightly just for just for a second, this is the thing, right? Because uh when you've got that entrepreneurial energy, you're just full of beans, like you literally buzz off change, right? And it's it's hard to remember that maybe 90, 95% of people are not really like that, you know what I mean? Or maybe it's not whether they are or they aren't, maybe just not to the same degree, yeah. And you come in and you're all excited, and from your perspective, you're just like, right, everybody's gonna love this. Yes, yeah, but how can they not? Yeah, this is it, right? You because you just think everybody thinks like you or like us or whatever, yeah. And um, you gotta be it's a big lesson to learn, isn't it? We've all been there, and um yeah, how can I say this? So, how you come across is the new young guy, right? The upstart is in here to mix stuff up and change things and break things and cause all sorts of chaos. That's how you can come across. So it's just about negotiating that, right? So, how how did you negotiate it? I'm just curious to know.

Dr Kaival, 16m 52s:

Yeah, to be honest, so I think this was the biggest mistake, and it's the thing that we don't do in any of the new practices we sort of take over. And I just let it fly, you know, um, for a long time. I sort of let them get on with whatever they were doing, and I built the practice around them. And I don't suggest this, but that's what I saw in niche in Milton Keynes where all the referrals were going elsewhere. Um so actually, and this was a big place that it had surgery space and everything else. And so I created a referral center in that first practice um and got the marketing out there. I love marketing. You know, we did a lot of marketing in and around the area, got amazing specialists involved, and actually started this sort of referral-based um, you know, part of the business, which which I loved. And it was something new and exciting and different. Um, I did my thing. Like I said, I never took over anybody's room. I I literally was whenever there was three days, I'd I'd work in those. I was like this nomad going between surgeries, but I just got on with my my business, my work. Um, but I think when when you look back on it, we didn't know the numbers in the place. Um, you know, and actually I was earning less as a principal than I was as as an associate, uh, which is common. I I hear it uh all the time, but it's it's you know, there's this perception of you know principles and whatever they do, but actually um, yeah, earning a lot less. And um I was earning less take home, but I was grossing more, you know, in terms of the practice, I was grossing a lot of money there, but it was all getting sucked into the practice. Um, and um, yeah, so but but that's what I did. I sort of moved around it. I and then eventually it came to a point where I was getting a little bit, I guess, upset, or I felt like the practice wasn't mine. I don't know if that makes sense, but it felt like I was going into a business on certain days, and it wasn't my energy, it wasn't my I was trying to fight almost on a daily basis. And I think that's that the that's the point where we just said, actually, do you know what? We've done it for a little while, we understand the business a little bit more. We need our own North Star. We need to know what we're trying to achieve, and then people are either on board or they're not, you know, at that point. And it took it took a few years to to transition, you know, that side of it and a bit of help with when COVID arrived and all these sort of things, ironically. Um, but it it took that time, you know, four or five years probably to make that happen. Um, and then when it happened, you know, it was it was like just a breath of fresh air, you know, when when you get rid of a bit of negativity in a place, you don't notice that's there, it's but it's this this sort of pressure wheel that's going on around you, and then suddenly it's gone, and there was just this calm, you know, and the zen. And then you realize actually I did the right thing because this is this is exactly what I need to do to move move and progress. And I had a whole different mindset. Um, and and I could do the things I wanted to do, which is all positivity and it was all development um for the practice.

Dr James, 19m 56s:

Do you know what? Um interestingly, I never I knew that what you know it's it's important to kind of crystallize our North Star and what have you, but I didn't fully appreciate how important that was until I read a book very recently called Traction by Gino Wickman. Have you ever read it? I've not read it, but oh my god, it's such a good book, especially for business owners, right? And uh once upon a time I used to be like kind of cynical about that stuff, like, oh yeah, North Star, Aerie Ferry, whatever, right? I kind of I didn't really get it, you know, and now I'm the exact opposite. And I'm like, actually, that's essential, right? Because how can you say that someone is a good fit or not a good fit unless you know what you're trying to achieve and where you're gonna go, right? Like it's a little bit like if you're going on the journey point A to point B, then you gotta actually define where point B is before you can say that you're literally going in the right direction or you're going in the exact opposite. Until you do that, well, it's not defined. So I like that book because it gives you a method methodology to do that.

Dr Kaival, 20m 53s:

And as you say, but I think I think there's a limit to it as well, because you know, you there's loads of people that have mapped out the next 30 years, but so much changes within that time, you know, within within your personal life, within professional life, within the economy, and everything else that I feel like you know, if you've got a general theme of what you're trying to achieve, but things will change. If I speak to you five years, James, things would have been completely different for yourself and probably for for me from what we expected. So, but I think if you if you're generally in that trajectory, then you're you're on the right route.

Dr James, 21m 24s:

You're right. Over planning is definitely a thing too, and we definitely need to be conscious of that. So it sounds like you went through that journey or series of epiphanies yourself. And then what did you okay? This would be brilliant, right? Because not only have you implemented that, you actually saw the results of implementing that as well. And you touched upon this just now. You said that there were certain people that were not necessarily aligned, and maybe recognizing that is a little bit like ripping off a band-aid, you gotta do it, basically. Uh, and then how did things shift after that? Did that give you clarity on the next practice and the next practice and the next practice? I'm curious. UK Dennis, Dennis Who Invest now has an official platform where you can learn about finance and obtain UK compliant, verifiable TV D at the same time. The only platform that exists on which you can do both. The Smart Money Members Club has hundreds of hours of mini courses, webinar series, and live day recordings on all things finance slash tax efficiency for UK dentists. This includes complete courses on how tax works for UK dentists, finance so that you can invest and grow your own money, business so you can improve your profitability as an associate or principal. And for those out there that want it, there's also a mini course on how you can responsibly enter the crypto space using measured amounts of capital. I've gathered this content from the best of the best I could find in each respective area so that you know that this is how people at the forefront of each field advise their clients. The Smart Money Members Club also contains discounts on common things that UK dentists need to pay for on a regular basis. This includes a whopping 10% discount on dental indemnity, the offer to beat your income protection deal no matter what you're paying, and for the principals out there, 5% discount on lab bills and 10% discount on practice insurance. These are designed to offer hundreds, if not thousands, in hours. Annual savings. The purpose of this members club is to not only boost your monthly income but also manage your outgoings as much as possible and therefore create more profit. To celebrate the launch of the Smart Money Members Club, and given that the CPD deadline is coming up soon, I've decided to offer the first month of this platform entirely for free. This offer will end in the coming weeks as soon as the current CPD cycle is up. To collect your CPD for this podcast episode using the Smart Money Members Club, feel free to use the link in the description of this podcast.

Dr Kaival, 23m 49s:

Yeah, so 2015 we got the first one. 2017 we got the second one, um, which was also in Milton Keynes. Um and the plan at that point was, and actually, we we literally had two kids at this on in the same years that they two practiced. So the joke was every practice I get, I'm gonna have a kid. So I had to just move away, you know, out next door for any future practices, just in case. Um, but yeah, okay.

Dr James, 24m 15s:

I mean I'll let it we'll let everybody do their own math on that.

Dr Kaival, 24m 19s:

Uh so 20 yeah, 2017, but the sake of practice, and Shrina was working in there. Um, and that was gonna be life. So I was in this one, she was in the other. Again, it's another large site. Um, and um, and then COVID hit. So obviously 2020, and um I had this um eye condition. I think I was probably winking at too many people in my younger days. Um, but since I was sort of 21, I've had this eye condition, and it and during COVID, it really flared up. So I think it must have been the stress and everything else going on, you know, around it. Um, and I remember, you know, like not really properly being able to see um, you know, in front of me large, you know, longer distances. And I thought, you know, everything was closed at that point. So I thought I just maybe my glasses need a change or whatever. And um, but I I ended up finding out that the flare up that uh, you know, the condition I had really flared up at that time. Um, so I at that point you sort of had to make a call where the I I just felt like I didn't want the clinical side of dentistry to be taken away from me. I want it to be my choice, you know, whether it's it's it's gonna happen or not. Um and so um, and incidentally, actually, my eye, you I I saw a specialist and it's much, much better. And and you know, everything was sort of worked out. But during that time, you didn't know, everything was closed, all you had is time to think, you know, and and sort of plan out. And and actually I I spoke to Sri Naza, and we both decided, well, you know, we actually liked the business side of dentistry. Um, we loved the clinical side before, um, but we actually like and we were on this entrepreneur program with with a bank, um, which was amazing, actually. And if if anybody can get onto any of these programs, I really highly recommend it because you were in environments that were not dentists. It was it was it was startup businesses with loads of energy, loads of them wanting to make the you know, make their career sort of go. Um, and um, yeah, and and and what we realized actually is which was a bit unusual, is both Rina and I both love the business side of dentistry. Whereas often in in a couple, there might be one that loves the clinical side a bit more than than the business side or or vice versa. So um, but when we and and also COVID allowed us to run the numbers. So we figured out break-even points per surgery per day in the practices and all these things to figure out why we weren't really earning that that money. Uh, and we realized that actually, you know, we had to do one of two things. One is either grow the business or or the second is is tighten up. And we're very much on growth, you know. So we we figured out ways that we can we can grow the practices, we're adding a surgery. So the seventh surgery place got it became an eighth surgery. Um, we factored in these things, but also the development side, we wanted to upskill our team, our dentists, um, and make them enjoy coming to work, enjoy the the, you know, and and I like I said to you before, we we have people that weren't aligned with us initially, but actually at this point, we're we're hiring people that want to develop, want to learn. And actually, I say in my interviews all the time, you know, there's loads of associate positions out there. Um, go for it, you know. But if you want to develop, if you want to progress yourself, then we're the right place because that's what we want from you. And if you don't, we're probably not the right place, you know, because that's that's not the ethos we have it within our in our group. Um, so yeah, so so um, but to make it happen and to make me move out of the clinical side, we we had to grow the group. And that's where Kana Health Group actually came about because uh by that point it was just Oxford House, the name of the practice, Wilson House. Um, but we thought we thought, yeah, we we need a brand, we need to grow that brand. Um, and as we do, we need to have uh, you know, uh grow grow the group actually and go from there. But we always grew it knowing the types of practices we wanted to buy, uh, locality and these sort of things were important as well around it. So so yeah.

Dr James, 28m 8s:

Wow, and that actually was something I was really keen to explore and talk about today because it's so easy to just keep getting the next dental practice and the next dental practice, and absolutely nothing wrong with that, by the way. You know, you want to become very successful doing that. Uh, and um, I guess it'd be interesting to explore the mindset, which made you think actually this is bigger than just dental practice, and I want to go into the education side of things and everything along those lines. So if I got that right, that's what kind of health group is, it's the dental practice and also the education. Maybe there's more to it as well.

Dr Kaival, 28m 43s:

Yeah, so in terms of the education part, we we used to hold courses for our own associates from the get-go, really. Um, but um everything's really based in London, in Manchester, and there's a whole big middle part of the country. And and a lot of our associates, if they wanted to do a structured course, would have to travel, you know. And let's say they were, you know, coming back of maternity, all these sort of things. It just didn't make it make it easier. And and I love the development side of it. So um I'm very grateful to a lot of people that a lot of the speakers that ended up coming on to course because we were nothing, you know, um, nobody heard about us. I reached out to what I felt were the best speakers in each sort of category and said, look, I'd really like to host a course in in Milton Keynes, um, which has got some teeth behind it, so an accreditation um with it, um, and you, you know, it'll be a diploma. Um, are you guys on board? And and and all the guys that are on our course uh in terms of the speakers, they all what literally gave up their time, they got involved with it, uh, and we created this aesthetic and restorative diploma um for dentists. Um, had this facility, which was like a um, it was a training. Well, it was a we used it for our meetings um opposite one of the practices, uh converted that into a beautiful sort of educational, you know, place, um speakers and um, you know, screens and lighting and all this sort of stuff. Uh and then two, it'll be three years ago now, we we had our sort of first course, first year, first cohort. Um, and from then it's really grown. Um, but I I love being I love being the middle guy, James. I love bringing people together. Um, so I you know I thought I couldn't teach, uh, and certainly the clinical side of it. Um, but I wanted the best speakers in these countries to be there and people not having to travel all over the place. But our USP was then to try and attract local dentists, uh, and that got blown out of the water. We have people from Ireland coming over, and um we we had you know from all over the country. So I think the actual course itself is is very good. Um, and the speakers and the educational quantity is good. So now it's just the USP is it's a it's the great bloody course with a lot of learning, a lot of hands-on um element to it. Um and then from then, I I didn't, I I always wanted, I mean, our rule in in the group is you might be with me with me for like one year or five years or ten years or to the end of your career. But during that period, I want you to have progressed. Um, and that's whether you're a dentist or a nurse or a reception team member or a practice manager. So I want the academy to be a hub for the whole wider team. Uh, and that's what we're developing going forward. Um, and then the next sort of stage of Kana Health Group, I think, is to have different elements and different businesses uh in part of dentistry. So we're probably gonna have a recruitment arm um and uh and sort of go from there. And it's it's why we called it Khan Health Group, and rather than just Kana Dental Group. And um, you know, at one point I was looking at maybe looking at um different sort of healthcare businesses, uh, which might look at in the future, but uh yeah, trying to get time and focus and not go in too many directions and and lose focus, I think, is a critical part.

Dr James, 31m 55s:

You're so right. And listen, two things that you said that I just want to pick up on. I'm gonna circle right back to something you were saying maybe like 10, 15 minutes ago, and it was about how you went on an entrepreneur's course that was not full of dentists, right? And it really, really, really does shift your thinking when you meet people who are outside of the sphere. And you know, with with love, we all don't realize how much we think like dentists until we meet people who aren't dentists. Like we we we just do, right? And I mean that in a nice way, you know. And uh listen, it's it that those are the sorts of things that led me to dentistry and invest as well, like exploring finance, which is helpful for dentists, but not dentistry, basically. And then obviously that led to the group, the community, all the things that I'm hugely grateful for and hugely proud of, and hope to hoping to expand those and for those to continue growing. But like I say, that all started through me exploring outside of dentistry. And if I could go back and talk to myself when I was younger, I'd say, James, do more of that, right? You know, but at the same time, you just pour a need to pour a little bit of cold water on that, don't you, Kevin? Because all of a sudden you can be like, right, wow, I'm gonna go crazy and do all this other stuff. That's the constant struggle of an entrepreneur, right? There's that balance, yeah, between being focused and also thinking laterally. And if you're too lateral, you're too scatterbrained. If you're too focused, you're sometimes missing out on opportunities. Yeah, but that's the that's the game we play, that's the balance that we strive for, isn't it?

Dr Kaival, 33m 20s:

And I think with practice acquisitions, you you know, we have quite a clear process for where we're gonna, you know, we'll get the numbers, we'll figure out actually where the numbers work, especially on an associate sort of led model, if it's there or thereabouts, what do we need to do to make the numbers work? And actually, there have been many practices we've seen there where it doesn't work. So, and and you know, on the outside of it, you think ah, this will be an amazing place to actually get, but actually, if the numbers don't work or won't work, then it's not a very good business decision. And I think it's it's important to not always be led with the heart. The heart will probably lead you there, but you do need to get the mind involved um during it, you know, as well to make the right decision. And but sometimes we were talking before, like sometimes it's risk. You you've got to you know be able to take risks as well. Um, so is there really delicate balance anyway, isn't it, James?

Dr James, 34m 10s:

It's it's one of the eternal struggles of an entrepreneur. And then another big one is um, okay, do I stick on the path that I'm already on, or do I mix it up and go for something else different? And that's the grass is always greener versus plugging away at something that isn't necessarily giving us that great a return. Anyway, it's all it's all food for thought, really, isn't it? You know what? Yachi said something really interesting just then, which I feel like would be really useful for the listeners of the podcast. It's not as that you've got a little bit of a system or protocol for when you find a new practice and you kind of weighing it up and assessing it. If you're and naturally, I know there's going to be like loads to this and a billion layers to it, and part of it will be intuition, inevitably. Is there a little bit of a checklist that you could share with the listeners today by way of how that looks that might be useful for them or things to look out for?

Dr Kaival, 34m 57s:

It's probably less complex than you think, really. I think my first step is I I always want to see the accounts. Um, I want to ideally want to see management accounts because you know it's it's something more current, um, and to know whether the cash flow of the business works. And and you're plugging into the loan uh and you're putting a bit of a stress test in terms of if that loan interest rates increase, can you cover that loan? Can you can you cover the the expenses that you have? Then you we have it on a benchmark, you know. So what does a normal practice in this sort of level, what should be the the key sort of line items? What should the staff wages be, for example, what should um you know other set of expenses be? And if there's a really big outlier, then actually I see it as an opportunity. Probably not staff wages because that's a difficult one to negotiate. But let's say they're spending loads on materials or lab fees or or these sort of things. Well, there must be a reason to that. And and so we'll we'll play around with those those numbers to an extent. And and then, you know, one-off costs and and these sort of things have that they put personal expenses through um the business and and you know, um, but then also sometimes, you know, um that they overinflate the the profit, um, you know, with with certain like I used to see quite a few COVID loans used to get put into the accounts, but it was this one off loan, you know. Yeah, so uh so you have to be a little bit clued on with with some of it. Nothing to say here. Yeah, um so so yeah, and then and then you you figure out you know truly whether you can afford it. Um and what do you if you you know, what do you need to do to grow it? Now we're very good with the marketing side of it, I believe. Um so I know that we can invest money into marketing and and get something out of it. Um, and then you're just looking for opportunities. So then in in the actual business itself, you know, are they doing higher-end work? For us, we have a bit of a hub and spoke model as well. So we've got this referral center, um, but the other practices um can refer into the referral center as well, which which overall increases the sort of group income. So is there an option of doing that, or is there an option of creating another hub and spoke model somewhere else? You know, and can we add specialists or can we can we add higher-end work um and treatments and these sort of things in there? Um, so these are the sort of things like basically where are your opportunities, but does it work financially sitting on its own? Um and we we ended up buying a partnership practice um with one of my associates. Um, and we we bought that because we wanted somebody actually within the practice itself to drive the business. Because we're finding that the sort of more practices we have, Srina and I can't be as involved, you know, in the in the day-to-day. Um, well, we are involved day to day, but we can't be involved in driving that clinical side, you know, on a day-to-day basis. So having these partners and we've just piloted it and it's gone really, really well with with the partner um really helps.

Dr James, 38m 1s:

Yeah, time and bandwidth become the ultimate constraints past a certain point, and that's why it's so helpful to be able to leverage someone else's brain, which is effectively what that is when you've got somebody else who's involved in the decision making. You said something really interesting. You said, well, you said a few things there, really, and you were like, okay, cool, we're looking at the practice, and then we're also looking at the areas where we think we can add value, and those are those are the practices that represent good opportunities. One thing that you mentioned was marketing, and you said that because you are au fay or have some a decent level of proficiency in that side of things, and a lot of dental practices could be so much better at marketing, right? Like that's just a given. We all know that, yeah. So I'm just curious, in terms of marketing from your perspective, how do you add value to this practice? Is it like Google Ads? Is it creating an Instagram account for the practice? How does that look? Or a bit of everything, really, maybe?

Dr Kaival, 38m 56s:

So again, I think the practices I tend to look at. Um, I look at practices within communities. Um the first part, overall, the best revenue return on investments word of mouth. So actually, if you can get a practice going well within a community, that's step one. So can you get that out there to local businesses? Can you get in collaborations on social media? We will always create sort of you know social media accounts with them. And what these people want to see is a bit, they want to build a bit of rapport before they come into the practice, any potential new patients. So show the personality of the place. Um, you know, show dentists having fun, say happy birthday to people on um, you know, your your team members with an actual picture of them there, um, show their personality because that way you're building that community aspect of it. And they sort of know you before they even come into that practice. So that that sort of step one is is is that community part, but also building the reputation um of the practice. Um, and then the second part, yes, Google PPC, um, but it cost a lot to get it. So um you've got obviously Facebook marketing, you've got TikTok now, which is which is there, and and all of these, you know, even Instagram and Reels and these sort of things, they have different markets that you can explore. And I'm very lucky. We have an amazing marketing manager, uh Jesse, who um is far more current than me and really, really creative. Um, and we've got a head of growth and development in our in our team as well, well, um Lee, who um focus on growth, you know. Um, and then we've got Srina and and uh another team member, Kieran, who who focuses on projects, and Srina's the operations side. So we've sort of got both sides um you know covered. Um but we need that ingenuity and growth and looking at new trends and all these sort of things in terms of the market itself. But the thing I've probably learned the most recently is you've got to track that bloody money. Um so you need to know what's working.

Dr James, 40m 52s:

Oh my god, when you said that just then, I was like, yes, 100%. There's a huge difference in spending money on ads and spending money on ads and actually analyzing what the returns are. Also, if you if you tweak something on the ads, you want to know how it's gonna affect things. That literally happened to me two days ago, right? I changed something and I was like, this is a no-brainer, this is gonna work. And it actually did the exact opposite of what I expected it to do. But yeah, I never would have realized that if I actually measured the data. And then when I was looking at it for day, I was like, I'm pretty sure if I just do the opposite of what I thought I should have done there, probably it probably would have worked better. But yeah, you're right, you're right. Listen, Kibble, I go on, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Dr Kaival, 41m 33s:

No, I'm just saying, you just don't know uh until you actually have the hard numbers in front of you, you know. What what uh what a campaign has done in terms of bumps in seeds and actual revenue from those bumps in seeds, you know, afterwards. So yeah, yeah, you it's it's it's crazy.

Dr James, 41m 47s:

It's crazy. You master of what you measure is a saying that I love and it's really true. You can see the answer is just staring back at you when you have the data. I want to share something with you, Kepo. Um just one more thing before we wrap up. I was talking about oops, I was talking about the book traction earlier and how I really like that. Um, off the back of that, I've actually got another book here called Measure What Matters. I don't know if you've ever come across this. I don't know. Yeah, apparently this is a business classic, this book, and it's all about setting good KPIs, which sounds really dry, but gets people like me excited. So I don't know, maybe that's it. Maybe I'll let you know. I'll send you a book review. How about that, Kaival? Or maybe I'm a reader, but it might be helpful. I don't know.

Dr Kaival, 42m 29s:

I I think I'll read it, yeah, absolutely. And and I I think that measuring part is is so so important, you know. Just get to grips with your numbers as as a bare minimum, you know, um, for any practice owners or if you're about to be practice owners, just get get to grips with your numbers, know what your break-even point is for a day, because everything above that is profit, right? Um, and and that those are the sort of key elements where it gives you these comfort factors. And actually, when you're comfortable in a business, you'll grow it because you're not stressing about all the minutiae.

Dr James, 43m 0s:

Boom. There we go. Kaival, I just want to thank you personally for sharing your time, wisdom, and knowledge on the podcast today. We could probably make I had so much more questions, it was just putting my head down and you were talking. And I'm sure we could probably make like five follow-up podcasts. So let's think about that at some stage. We'll plan that for the future. We'll come back to that 100%. But in the meantime, I just want to thank you on behalf of myself and behalf of the listeners on the podcast. If people want to connect with you or find out more about Kana Health Group and the education platforms that you run, how would they be best off doing that?

Dr Kaival, 43m 33s:

Yeah, so in terms of the academy, um Kana Dental Academy uh dot com, please feel free to go to the website and have a little look and to connect to with me, Instagram, um, Facebook, LinkedIn, um, you know, uh anything to be honest. So they can go through through yourself, James. I'm always happy to to share and collaborate. And uh I'm an open book, so yeah, absolutely happy to help any of your listeners in any way I can.