Dr James, 41s:

As ever you can claim your CPD for this episode within the official dentists who invest Smart Money Members Club. Smart Money Members Club also includes multiple mini courses and webinar series on finance for dentists, including how to become as tax-efficient as possible, as well as understanding investing. All of this content comes as verifiable CPD, and you can download your certificates there and then on completion of each lesson. In addition to this, we also include a whopping 10% discount on your dental indemnity and a 5% discount on lab bills for dental principals, amongst other perks and discounts for members. Please use the link in the description to claim your verifiable CPD for this episode. Luke, we're obviously very excited today to talk about retirement. Has anybody ever said that sentence ever? I think they should, even if they hadn't, because guess what? It is actually super duper important. And you know what? I think there's a few misconceptions about that concept in there as well. We will be discussing that too, because I think people roll their eyes and they're like, hey, I know what that means, but actually, whenever they get introspective and whenever they get a little bit deep, I don't really think they always do. So look, let's start from the start. You're a financial planner. So what I was curious in was what made you interested in the more human side of money, I guess. And the reason I'm asking that question is you and I have had millions of chats over the years where that comes into play, almost like the philosophy of money in a way. So I'm curious what what inspired you to become interested in that?

Luke, 2m 13s:

Yeah, I think I've seen in the last 15 years quite a few people retire. And it's quite obvious to me that there's not a direct correlation between the amount of money you have and the success you have in that process. So I've watched people with substantial means retire and be fairly miserable. I've seen those with modest means thrive. And for me it's just quite interesting to unpick the human reasons for that. I think retirement is quite a daunting process for lots of people. If you imagine it's Monday morning, 10am, you've retired on the Friday, you've got no appointments, nothing in your inbox, nobody needs you as such. Some people I think feel relief at that, and others there's a just a flicker of panic. I think it's quite interesting to pick apart what that flicker means.

Dr James, 3m 4s:

For sure. And you know what? One thing I've always noticed as well is I feel like people big retirement up to be this finish line where all of a sudden they give themselves permission to be happy, and that's not always the case, and we can live our whole lives chasing that mirage in a way, and it literally is a mirage, in the sense that it's always the point at which you give yourself permission to be happy is almost is always slightly in front of you, and I think that's a massive misconception, and I think that we should create a life in which we're happy in the here and now, but obviously also making provisions towards some sort of overall objective, wherever that might be, or making enhancing that even further. But we need to give ourselves permission to be happy in the here and now. And just on the topic of misconceptions, I feel like you might have something to say on that front. What do you feel are the general misconceptions that your clients seem to suffer from whenever it comes to whenever it comes to retirement? Not even necessarily clients, maybe just humans in general.

Luke, 4m 2s:

I think firstly I'd say that it's not a single event. I think often retirement's framed as like you've just said, like it's this this finishing line. It's quite often a process, it's often messy, it's nonlinear, and quite a few people I think wobble in the beginning until they find their feet. So that's definitely probably number one. I'd say number two is that people think, particularly, I think when you're younger, you think retirement is just kind of a permanent holiday, or you know, all the fun stuff that you do at the weekend you can do throughout the week. But actually, the reasons why weekends work and holidays work is because they're a counterbalance to some of the other stuff that you get from your working life. I think that the biggest consideration with retirement is the money. And actually, I think a big part of it is this stuff. I think it's really important to invest as much time as possible in working out what comes next. So, like you said, what are you retiring to? And I think that's a really good phrase. Actually, it's not what you you know, it's retiring to something and having that objective lined up. I think a big one is that you're in you you automatically think you and your partner or spouse want exactly the same thing, and actually you may have very different visions of what good looks like in the future. And many couples have not had uh that conversation, and that conversation is left right to the last minute. And I think it's really important to sit down and work out what both want and what good looks like for you as a unit. And I think people often think that they'll just do all the things they've been putting off and that they should wait until retirement and they've got these goals they want to achieve, or some people use I don't particularly like the phrase, but a bucket list. I think that's you know, that there's a danger of latching onto that and putting things off. I think a better process would be to have a one, be enjoying life, enjoying the journey and doing as much of that whilst you're younger. And yeah, two, not look at it as if it's just suddenly an opportunity where everything gets backloaded.

Dr James, 6m 3s:

Yeah, the problem with that is that, like I say, first of all, when you get there, that concept that you all of a sudden are just going to be completely happy is predicated on the fact that your life circumstances are gonna be very similar to what they are right now, and who knows, you know, they mightn't be, there might be something else going on. I think that you have to allow yourself to be happy in the given moments, given what you have, because you might never have that unique set of circumstances ever again. And here's the other deeper question is the more morbid side of things is will we even live that long? Nobody knows, nobody's got a crystal ball, and that might sound rather like how can I say this, almost like flippant and obvious, but I don't really feel like even though that is the case, and all of us know that we subconsciously know that consciously it doesn't seem to have any bearing on our actions because we're just waiting for this finish line that may or may not ever come, and there's there's a huge paradox in that basically.

Luke, 6m 58s:

Just on that, James. I think one another key one for me is people think that they're going to choose the exact point at which they retire, and sadly, that's not always the case. Health and other factors may play a part, and it's not always on the terms that you envisaged or that you had laid out in your head.

Dr James, 7m 18s:

One term that I've heard you use before is hidden paycheck. Maybe we could explain that for the audience.

Luke, 7m 25s:

Yeah, so hidden paycheck, it's all the extra things that you get from work that you don't necessarily always appreciate until they're gone. So you know, it's the mental stimulation, it's the identity that you get. You know, if somebody uh asks you what do you do, is having an answer to that question. Once you've stopped work, it's a more challenging one to answer. It's having structure, it's having routine, it's having a reason to get up in the morning. It's the community that you get from the workplace, kind of it's daily, isn't it? It's effortless social contact that arrives in a structured way, day by day. Purpose, another big one, being needed, being useful. And I think status. So people get a lot of good feeling from being respected, being competent at what they do, being an expert. I definitely think that's a huge one. And I've seen for some people that go through that retirement process, it's almost a bit of a bereavement at the loss of some of those factors, particularly around kind of status and purpose and identity. Particularly if you've worked really hard for the career you've had, right? And you've you've worked your way out you're at the top of your game, and all that experience makes you the best at what you do. I think kind of walking away from that is quite difficult.

Dr James, 8m 43s:

For sure. When we talk about retirement, it's important to say that this is almost, in essence, a social construct because when we were cavemen and cave women, you know, this didn't exist. This came somewhere between now but this historically this arose somewhere between that point and where we are now. But it's not an evolutionary thing, it's a societal construct. And I guess what I'd be curious to know is does that well look, maybe you know, you've told me about this before. You you know a little bit about the history of retirement and where the term actually came from, because it's actually relatively recent. I think it was 1800s, 1900s, that term became a concept or a philosophy.

Luke, 9m 27s:

Yeah, I think in the industrial age, typically, you know, you kind of worked until you dropped. We didn't have the same protections in place for later age. And back in the kind of old older times, in the industrial age, life expectancy was before kind of expected retirement age. The retirement age has sort of sat still, and life expectancy has significantly increased from kind of sixties up until eighties. And now we've got this whole phase of life where some people haven't got that hidden paycheck that gives them all of those elements we just discussed. So, and crucially, from a financial planner's perspective, you've got to pay for it. And so yeah, it is a social construct, it's evolved. I don't particularly like the phrase retirement, it actually comes from the French. The word in French, I believe, uh is kind of to withdraw, to retreat. I don't think that's what people should be doing. But yeah, I prefer the concept of financial independence and the retirement being a process of really stopping the career and moving into something else rather than looking at it at a sudden halt.

Dr James, 10m 37s:

Interesting. And do you feel that as the years have gone on, have have gone on in your experience as a financial planner, that stereotypical retirement, insofar as we just start drawing from the pension or drawing from an investment account, you know, that going into drawdown and just us living off that and not really doing anything anymore past that point, do you feel like less and less people are taking that up as an option, or do you feel like that is just as how can it say it, as common as ever? How is people's relationship with that shifted, or how frequent is that typical retirement nowadays? UK dentists, Dennist Who Invest now has an official platform where you can learn about finance and obtain UK compliant, verifiable CVD at the same time. The only platform that exists on which you can do both. The Smart Money Members Club has hundreds of hours of mini courses, webinar series, and live day recordings on all things finance slash tax efficiency for UK dentists. This includes complete courses on how tax works for UK dentists, finance so that you can invest and grow your own money, business so you can improve your profitability as an associate or principal, and for those out there that want it, there's also a mini course and how you can responsibly enter the crypto space using measured amounts of capital. I've gathered this content from the best of the best I could find in each respective area so that you know that this is how people at the forefront of each field advise their clients. The Smart Money Members Club also contains discounts on common things that UK dentists need to pay for on a regular basis. This includes a whopping 10% discount on dental indemnity, the offer to beat your income protection deal no matter what you're paying, and for the principals out there, 5% discount on lab bills and 10% discount on practice insurance. These are designed to offer hundreds, if not thousands, in annual savings. The purpose of this members club is to not only boost your monthly income but also manage your outgoings as much as possible and therefore create more profit. To celebrate the launch of the Smart Money Members Club, and given that the CPD deadline is coming up soon, I've decided to offer the first month for this platform entirely for free. This offer will end in the coming weeks as soon as the current CPD cycle is up. To collect your CPD for this podcast episode using the Smart Money Members Club, feel free to use the link in the description of this podcast.

Luke, 13m 5s:

I think there's been a slight shift. I think people are more awake to the ideas of other forms of retirement rather than the classic kind of cliff edge. I think the for dentists, my observation for dentists and I work with some doctors, the cliff edge approach to retirement has often been I think possibly led by the NHS pension scheme, where you have that very set moment in time when you draw on that defined benefit pension, or possibly two ages post-reform, and that's led to that kind of idea that it's a an event that's set in stone. But I do think people are awakening to the idea that you can actually have a more phased approach and there's different ways of going about retirement. And I do think more and more people are realizing that there are other opportunities as well, given the amount of additional life. You know, if somebody's kind of thinks around about the age 60, for example, which is a one that often gets quoted, so much life left to go and do something, whether that be paid work or good causes or even a second career, or you know, I had one client who retrained as a flight instructor, gave up his first career and went back to work teaching people how to fly because that was his passion. Fantastic retirement plan for me. Get paid to do something you absolutely love doing. So I do think there's a shift, and there's different types of retirement now creeping into the conversation.

Dr James, 14m 36s:

Interesting. Well, it's good to know that black and white were either rather retired or we're not a retired or not retired. Well, it's not always the case, and there's other options out there, there's other things that we can look forward to. And I guess another thing that plays into what we were just talking about a second ago, in your experience with clients, you know, I love asking questions that can only be answered by people who have years of ill- in-the-field experience on a specific subject because you can't just recount facts, it's usually the responses are usually a little anecdotal, but that's okay because there's still value to be found within that for the listeners and people who are privy to the information espoused off the back of these sorts of questions. But basically, what I'm getting at is what I'd like to know in your years of experience as a financial planner, how do people typically respond emotionally in those first few years? Are because the paradigm that we're fed is that they're all related.

Luke, 15m 32s:

I think there's yeah, there's a mix there. I think people are related to there might be a honeymoon period to start with where you know you could be at a stage in some people who reach kind of a burnout phase. You may, let's say you're a principal, you're in a practice, you may be at the point where you feel like you've taken it as far as you can and you've invested a huge amount of time and energy and love and dedication into that. And equally, if you're retiring as an associate and you've built up this career and you're looking forward to a break, right? So I think there's that initial sigh of relief, you've suddenly got time back. And then I think those factors we talked about, the hidden paycheck, I think that creeps in and the novelty wears off somewhat, and that's where it's really important to kind of a process of like reorientation and figuring out okay, what comes next, what's sort of the future going to look like, and and sitting down and planning what's really important to somebody and how they're going to replace those factors that they might be might be missing from what they were doing before. So yeah, I think from experience that's probably the the trend. Initial relation. I don't think anyone's upset in the early phase of that, but I do think after a period of time there becomes a bit of a need to kind of process where they are and what they want to do with the rest of their lives.

Dr James, 16m 56s:

Any stories on any specific uh difficulties that you've witnessed individuals go through in retirement or any ones that stand out in your mind?

Luke, 17m 8s:

I think the hardest ones to deal with, this is pretty morbid, James, but the hardest ones to deal with is premature death of loved ones. And if you're a couple and you've worked hard all your life and you get to that point where you can go and do something different, and you've got all these plans that you may have lined up, and if health or premature death interrupts that, then that's yeah, that's pretty hard to deal with, obviously, and hard to help those clients you really feel for people in that situation. I've had those in my, you know, I've had those close to me go through that. So I think that's probably the hardest scenario. I think the other stuff I've mentioned, the identity collapse, some people might be lonely in retirement, maybe they don't have a partner or a spouse, then there's that that community element, you know, is key. I think there's definitely been examples of that. I think other challenges. I think if I was if I put my financial hat on, I think there's the savers paralysis. You know, if you've been a saver all your life, some people really find it difficult to transition to suddenly being uh spending down on your assets. I think that's a real big one. You know, people like being able to log into their accounts and look at their values, and if all of a sudden they start drawing down on that money, that can be quite a hard process for people to deal with. We have that kind of wealth bondage, and you know, the frame the phases are named accumulation and decumulation for a reason, you know, whether that be spending or gifting. So I do think that's tricky. I think some people around that point in time also kind of fall into that sandwich trap where you're caring for aging parents and still supporting adult children, and you know, you're kind of being pulled in both directions, and that's a hard time for people, I think.

Dr James, 18m 54s:

Yeah, for sure. It's good to have these conversations, be aware of what can happen because it isn't always the dream retirement where we sail off into the sunset, that's for sure. And what I'd be curious to know obviously, we've talked about the impact on the individual with regards to retirement, but we have to talk about our significant others as well, our spouses, and how retirement can impact those relationships. Any words of wisdom on that front?

Luke, 19m 21s:

Yeah, I think that's it's really interesting, actually, the kind of relationship dynamic and how that might be impacted by a retirement. Can you know, kind of that relationship squeeze? You all of a sudden you've got two people, one kitchen, 24-7. I think that could be tricky. And it sometimes, not always, but it could be that if there's a couple that the retirements are at different points, and one person may have already retired and they may be used to having that space and they've already got their routines and structure, and then the other person retires and suddenly just lands straight in the middle of that, and that certainly needs you know some thought and working out. You do see clients with different visions as well, different interests. That doesn't mean that they they're not the ideal for each other, it just means that I think it's healthy that you've got different uh interests and hobbies and things that you like to do. Some times one client might really like to travel, the other might not, you know, they're the different views on lifestyle, which is fine, it's just about talking it through and making sure that both needs are satisfied in that future plan and talking about it beforehand before you're just suddenly thrust in into that position.

Dr James, 20m 33s:

For sure. And I guess one pertinent thing to ask as well would be out of all the conversations that you've ever had with clients, dentists, otherwise, or even people that you've witnessed going you know crossing that threshold into retirement, whether they be clients or not, if you could just give them one heads up, one headline heads up about anything that they should look out for, what would it be?

Luke, 21m 0s:

I think the number one thing for me is to reframe it in your head that you're not retiring from something. You should be retiring to something. It should be a reframe and do the work to put yourself in the position where you've got that next phase lined up. I think that's really the key. If you just see it as right, it's an end to what's just happened and the past, then you're more likely to be susceptible to those issues that we've identified earlier.

Dr James, 21m 28s:

And you know what? I think actually that's a really good point because I always like to end these sorts of things on a high note. If you had one observation or one, you know, some words of wisdom, insofar as what you've seen or observed in couples who thrive, couples, not even just couples, but also just individuals as well, who thrive whenever it comes to their retirement, what would it be? Is there anything they all have in common?

Luke, 21m 53s:

I think those that rehearse it, talk about it, that plan for it genuinely. I mean, I'm a financial planner, so I'm obviously going to say planning, but not just the financial, the social. Build a social portfolio before kind of leaving work and losing that hidden paycheck. Give yourself permission to spend, really do crunch the numbers, know what you know, make it all intentional, really. I guess is the right phrase. Don't wing it. Plan it. I think if you do that, then you put yourself in a really good place.

Dr James, 22m 23s:

Boom. And Luke, if anybody wants to reach out to you today off anything that we said in the podcast, how are they best off finding you?

Luke, 22m 30s:

Email address luke@viderefinancial.com. Easiest way to get in touch directly.

Dr James, 22m 35s:

Or of course it is worth mentioning you are on the Facebook group as well.

Luke, 22m 38s:

I am, yes, pop me a message.

Dr James, 22m 39s:

Easy to find, Mr. Luke Hurley. Luke, thank you for your time, wisdom, and knowledge as ever. We'll talk again soon.

Luke, 22m 45s:

Thanks, James.