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Dentists Who Invest

Podcast Episode

Full Transcript

Dr James: 

Hey team, what is up everybody? Welcome back to Dennis University podcast where I’ve got returning face. Dr Jamil sat here in front of us. People may remember Dr Jamil from the podcast who did a little bit of a while back about how Jamil had managed to set up and run three dental practice by the age of 28, which is no flipping mean feet. So hats off to Jamil, and you know what it’s not like. He’s been sat around on his laurel since we last spoke. Even more has changed, which is why we’ve got Jamil back on here today. Jamil, how are you, my friend?

Dr Jamil: 

I’m very well Thank you, that’s a very, very nice introduction. It’s just a lot more important than I really am, james.

Dr James: 

Super important. We’re all super important in our own way, and you know what? What you’ve done is flipping. Incredible, mate. I didn’t even know it was possible to set up a dental practice at 28. I don’t even think I’d thought that far ahead. You know what it would have been, yeah, so yeah, fair play, mate. It just shows you. It’s just mindset, though, isn’t it Like anyone can do it?

Dr Jamil: 

Where are you going to learn?

Dr James: 

Yeah, you can do anything when you’re in the squeeze zone you’re going to learn yeah. You know Anyway.

Dr Jamil: 

Yeah.

Dr James: 

Anyway. So what’s new since we last spoke?

Dr Jamil: 

So we spoke about this podcast number three, isn’t it? Yeah, we’re doing well, we’re doing well. So the first podcast was about two practices. One of my first two practices. We talked about valuations and stuff like that how I run a practice. I think we went a bit of a tangent on the first one. Second one one we reeled it back in, spoke a lot about marketing, patience, blah, blah, blah. So I’d say, james, if it’s, I love sharing knowledge, if you allow me to, I will share my how I built a squat practice and I did it on a really reasonable budget, less than 100 grand. So I think it would thank a lot of people that I wanted to start, would you agree?

Dr James: 

Superbent results. Let’s do it. Let’s do it. How did that happen?

Dr Jamil: 

So basically, my first practice I don’t know what the issue is my first practice is only two surgeries and we massively overgrowing that surgery. Okay, so we’re waiting. An average person is waiting about four to five months for a simple felling, for example, and most of them went by 80 to 90% by that, I think. At this moment what happened was there was a building opposite me at a tattoo parlor, and I said look, can’t buy the building if she was umming an RA. Then she said somebody else has bought it. That deal fell through. And then she approached me again. I said no, you know what. It was not really doing the first place. I’m not really key. And then, as you do, I’m always looking at my right move anyway. I was just looking for commercial properties and then I happened to stumble across this the new practice, ideal for me. Massive GP site Can’t get planning without anything. It can’t be used for anything other than a GP or a dentist. So it’s a D1 category, shall we say. They tried to get planning for a flat spade or rejected. So it’s an ideal case. Not other dentists bid on it, I was the only guy. Surprisingly, it did need a lot of work to be fair. But yeah, that’s how I came about it really. So the reason I came about is not because I wanted to go open up a squat practice is because our demanding number one practice was too much. This practice is about 20 minute drive away, so it’s a good distance. You don’t want to kind of blight on yourself.

Dr James: 

E1,. What is D1? I mean, where is that category found? Where is it used? Who created?

Dr Jamil: 

that. So I think in England now I think they got rid of D classification. I don’t know what it means. All I know is E and D. There’s these little different permits that the council gave to each building Right, so you wouldn’t want like a church in the middle of a nightclub street or like is there to make sure is in the right place. Oh, ok, so basically D1 is used for medical purposes dentists, gps I don’t know what else is used from James. If I’m being honest, in England now I believe you don’t need to have a D classification. I think you can open up with an E classification. So it’s a lot broader, so a lot more properties apply to it.

Dr James: 

All right, it’s just something. It’s just some sort of terminology in terms of categorization for the purpose of the building. Ok, fair enough, let’s reel it back into dentistry. In that case, I thought I was like D1. Is that dental one? I don’t know what that was. Anyway, ok, cool. So you’ve obviously bought this practice, right? Then the next step was to kit it out, right, and this is the amazing part, because you’ve done this in under 100,000 pounds, right? So this is the part I’m really intrigued about Just how did you go about that?

Dr Jamil: 

Because a lot of people that have listened to this podcast, a lot of people that probably look to start up a squat practice would want to self-fund it. I think it’s quite difficult to get bank funding for a squat practice, or unless you try and find an investor, but what I did? So I found the building, acquired the building and then I drew up the plans myself with a guy from Fiverr. It sounds complicated, but it’s really not and, in my opinion, I think we have a lot more knowledge than an architect does of exactly what we want. So I spent a lot of time designing it. I found a guy on Fiverr that just did all the cat drawings no way.

Dr James: 

Say what.

Dr Jamil: 

I can’t talk to you with no way. I’ll tell you what it is, james, there’s only five things that dental chair needs. Ok, simple enough. And then you need to just have like 90 centimeters from the headrest around. It’s not as hard as people make it out to be, but this way I think of dental practice such as getting out of house, but you’re getting out more kitchens, so you’re doing three kitchens instead of one kitchen. That’s all it is, isn’t it? So I designed it all. So start plan one. I designed everything. Then we gutted everything out. I used a website called mybuilderunlocked. I didn’t want to trust one contractor for everything, so I used loads of little contractors for each part of the build. The disadvantage, that is, that I was quite heavily involved, and I wanted to be heavily involved is something I really enjoyed. So when I got to the contractor stage, I subdivided every job out to each contractor so electrician at each room, stage one. Wiring stage two wiring what is exactly needed, and then they quoted a price based on that. One thing I did that was quite different to a lot of people is that all my contractors had company cards, my company cards, so they could just spend on my account and they would just give me a receipt with a justification. But realistically, materials cost what they cost. There’s no two ways about it. Did some of it get stolen? Probably, I don’t know, but it was a good way of me managing how much, because I knew approximately, if you know a pipe, you’re going to run 10 meters of a pipe and somebody buys 50 meters of pipe and the long bills start really low there, and so that’s what I did I split it up into loads and little jobs. You seen the pictures James, I think I did a pretty good job. It’s pretty nice.

Dr James: 

Astro Denpo, wasn’t it? Yeah, Looks cool to me, man. I love the Rocket Ship logo. Oh no, it’s not it’s an astronaut with a Rocket Ship logo. Dude. That looks exactly like the Rocket Ship emoji. Is that what it is?

Dr Jamil: 

No, it’s actually something similar. But yeah, similar, yeah, there we go. I based it when I tried to design brands okay. Now when I was coming to name it, I was like, oh damn it, what do I name it? I’m going to name it the local area dental, okay. So then I thought no people want to go to a fun, except like, did you see the emotions it had on you when you saw the logo? You’re like that’s so cool. I liked it, yeah. So that’s what I want to do. I like creating fun, childish brands that really resonate with people, and so I didn’t do the whole word astronaut dentos, because a lot of people can’t spell astronaut. If you ask 50 people to spell astronaut, you’ll be surprised how many people can’t spell it. So you want it very easy to spell. So yeah, going off the marketing tangent, but yeah, I believe so that’s what I did. There’s a few other things that I saved money. So I got in contact with a dental company that specializes in new birth score practices. One of them quoted me 10 grand for them to design it and I thought blindly what are they quoting 10 grand for?

Dr James: 

It’s ridiculous in my opinion.

Dr Jamil: 

It’s not anyone that’s listening to this. If you’re going to set up a squat practice, I think you need to spend a bit of initiative, spend a bit of time learning about electrics, plumbing, having base knowledge about electricity, about plumbing, about gas, about networking, because, realistically, if the way my practice has been done, I almost know where every cable is and where every pipe has been run. If there’s ever a problem 10 years down the line I will know. So it kind of created a lot of redundancies If an contractor did try and mess me around.

Dr James: 

Yeah.

Dr Jamil: 

But yeah. So my opinion is a lot of us go on these fancy courses learning about composite. If you’re going to set up a squat practice, it’s going to be one of the biggest things you’re doing in your life. Ok, much bigger than a class. Five composite what?

Dr James: 

Yes, what about a class six? They’re pretty big, I know yeah, class six, whoa.

Dr Jamil: 

Whoa, I think you should read it, and I mean not mean by going to courses and trying to learn about squat practice from courses. I think you should just research about how is a simple wiring done in a house, because it’s not much different than a house than it is in a practice. It’s not much different.

Dr James: 

Well, it’s the same, isn’t it? I mean, it’s just a beautiful un-magnetic chairs.

Dr Jamil: 

Yeah, it’s basically the same.

Dr James: 

But I guess what most people don’t realise is the significance of that stuff, because quite often it’s like these things just have a budget and people just throw money at it until it’s done. Yeah, my experience, yeah, and what you’re talking about is doing a lot of the stuff yourself that can be bootstrapped effectively.

Dr Jamil: 

Yeah, so if you can keep costs down, OK, you’ll turn the profit a lot quicker. Yeah, OK. So if somebody let’s say a competitor of mine goes and spends 400 grand on a practice, OK, if you look at their monthly repayments for finance, equipment or whatever they return on investment, it’s going to take them a lot longer to pay that off. If not, they’re going to have to charge a patient a lot more. And then they compete with the likes of me who have gone for the cheap of the cheap just to get a practice up and running. So a lot of people might not hear this, but this is term that a lot of startups use, which is called minimal viable product.

Dr James: 

Yeah, so.

Dr Jamil: 

I don’t know in dentistry why it’s not applied to dentistry but any other industries is applied to, isn’t it? Minimum viable product. You want to spend the least amount of money, get your company off the ground and then later on, in the later on, you could spend money on wherever you need to spend money on. Yeah, I saved a lot of money on like cabinetry. So I used a company called Houdens. Everyone must know of Houdens, but they’re a trade furniture, worktop stuff they make. They make kitchen cabinets and stuff. I don’t think there’s any difference between a kitchen cabinet and a dental cabinet. I personally believe it’s the same. So I went for the best one and I spent a thousand five hundred pound a surgery A thousand five hundred pound. A thousand five hundred pound. I spent about a thousand four hundred pound a decon. If anyone’s listening to this, they can Google astro dental Cavillie and you can see the pictures. It looks pretty cool.

Dr James: 

I think it’s a quite nice touch Do you agree, James? Yeah, I like it, that’s cool.

Dr Jamil: 

Yeah, the matte blue looks really nice. So then I paid a contractor five hundred pound per surgery for them to fit it out. So most dental companies will charge you in the region of about seven grand for dental cabinetry. I do not know how you could charge seven grand, just if I charge seven grand for a bit of work. But each to their own. So I did a lot of that. My dental chairs and stuff I bought used. Okay, there’s two reasons I bought used. Number one is the lead time for dental chairs about. It’s about nine months. You can produce a kid faster than you can get dental chair, believe it or not. Another thing is because of the cost. So I just paid about two grand a chair. Okay, that might last me five years, but at least my start-up cost is quite low. In the future I can go and spend 10 grand.

Dr James: 

I like that mindset.

Dr Jamil: 

So is it all about keeping your cost low so that you’re not worried and you’re not drowning yourself in debt, because I believe if your start-up costs are quite high, naturally. So you’ll be hoping oh I hope that patient takes that treatment plan because I’ve got X amount to pay. What if something happens to you? What if you get into an accident and your arm breaks? Then what? Then you’ve got this huge. Whether you lock or not, you’ve got a stoker alone to pay. You’ve got fine agreements to pay. So, even to the level where I bought used X-ray arms and holders, I bought used Suctions. What did I buy? I bought used Vista scanner. Everything I bought was used. I’m that type of guy that’s taking what would, be happy to take the risk I’d be known. I’d rather cancel a day of surgery rather than spend an extra For me to get all that equipment. You would probably cost me about 70 grand About each surgery, 10. Probably about 70 grand on top of where I’ve already spent. I’d spend 70 grand in a day. Think about how many days I could lose before it would be worth buying a chair, and don’t new chairs break down.

Dr James: 

Yeah, exactly Everything breaks down.

Dr Jamil: 

You’re just gambling on your chances. You know the money I’ve saved. I’d rather so. I’ve got up to five surgeries in this place. I’d rather get up to five surgeries.

Dr James: 

Makes no sense bro.

Dr Jamil: 

So then I’ve got that redundancy that if a surgery does break, I can use another one. A lot of people won’t be fortunate to have that, but in my opinion you better get one brand new chair. If you’re that worried about to get one brand new chair, get one used chair. So at least you’ve got that redundancy as well. Yeah, enough surgery space for two surgeries.

Dr James: 

Very, very, very cool. Okay, Awesome. Well, some words of wisdom there. Because how often do we just throw money at these things, as what I was saying earlier? Because most people are just in the mindset where they’re just like I just want to get this done. Where can I buy a chair? However much here you go done, are you with me? You know, and now I would see, if I was in that position, I’d probably react exactly the same way as if you’re a little more thoughtful about it, like what you’re being. What it means is you can do it in a much more efficient way and use all these little hacks along the way. Yeah, anything else. Anything else that you can. That was big for you, significant.

Dr Jamil: 

So I’ll tell you my bad experiences. All right, yeah, let’s do that. So I thought, yeah, I’m a hero, I’m young, I could do this myself. So the first day on site I had demolition contractor in ripping out, getting out of contract, and I had a waste disposal contractor First day I walk in. I walked in at lunchtime this time already and they’re about to fight and I was like Hi, can we really come up here? So obviously I got rid of. I knew which contractor was causing me the issue. But the great thing with me is that because I didn’t get fully into bed with any contractor, I almost could get rid of any contractor with a click of the finger because we had discussed every portion of the project. So if I wasn’t happy after they did surgery, one wiring, I could get rid of them. Yeah it is no headache. There’s no argument of no, actually I did more money’s worth. No, we agreed a set fee, that’s it. Yeah, things like polyfloor and stuff like that are going to really good deal on polyfloor. So those are. Those are listed.

Dr James: 

Give me a second Jake Sorry. You’re a busy man. You’re actually on site at present, so it’s cool that you’re taking phone calls, you know, and it’s cool that you’re keeping on top of things, which is great.

Dr Jamil: 

James, you know what. So that was one of the disadvantage of it. Another disadvantage was because you’re losing loads of little smoker tractors when they install the dental chair. Yeah, okay, we put the suction and I go to my engineer. I’m like the suction is not powerful enough. And then they blamed my and the blame they got with the piping. I said is the pipe? This is split in the pipe. I was like no, not today, because at this point, james, you have to remember that they can’t reach the floor and also they put the polyflooring. So if for me to correct, if there was a true split in the pipe, I would have to rip up the whole floor, rip up the break the whole concrete to see if there’s a damaged pipe. Thankfully it wasn’t that, this way of isolating things and working out what the issue was. But thankfully it wasn’t that. But that was a gut wrenching moment, like I was like oh my gosh, if that was the case, that would delay the project by a month at least to rip up the floor, find a contractor to break through the concrete, to replace the pipe, to put everything back. That’s a big old job that is, and so that was another go register. So you take a lot of the risk in a project when you manage it yourself. Was it fun? Would I do it again? How do you do it again? I learned a lot on the way. You probably heard me speaking to contractors, jane, before we started. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. So we’ve got a problem with one of the pipes. With one of the pipes, as in when we put in the hot water and the deacon it’s not running as powerful as we want. So then it’s just a problem solving and us dentists, we’re great at problem solving. You just work out what you think might be the problem and if not, the problem can’t be resolved in just running a new pipe. It’s not the end of the world, but yeah. So I split the project a lot. Now a lot of people that listen to this might go to one big contract and say, no, I don’t want any headache, I want this contract to do everything. Okay. When somebody like that does go to a big contract like that, they rub their hands together Okay, because they’ve got to take into account mitigating circumstances that might happen during the build. If they agree a set figure with you, they’ve created set figure. What if there’s a problem with one of the walls and the walls need to be knocked down and rebuilt? You’re going to have to pay for the main contractor’s management, which would be about 25%. So by the time you add all of this, it adds up quite a lot. And the great thing about me was I didn’t have to pay any. I paid barely any VAT, but all the contractors I used weren’t that registered. So that’s another 20% of the that’s like 20% off the top. That’s 20% VAT, isn’t it? I saved 20%. I was more than happy to pay VAT on materials because you have to, everyone has to pay it, so it doesn’t matter. But saving that, that was a huge saving I had. So not only if you’re using a big contractor, not only are you paying quite a lot of contractors for the hourly rate anyway, but you’re paying another 20% for VAT on top. So that’s the issue. So that’s another way I saved a lot of money. In my opinion, james me having amazing work in my surgery and all the corners being banged on 90% and all the rendering being perfect is not going to make me money. In my opinion. What’s going to make me money? I’d rather save 50 grand and plug 50 grand on marketing, but, truth be told, that’s what’s going to get me patients through the door. Truth be told, my waiting room chairs are going to leave a positive impact on a patient. Truth be told, having nice pieces throughout the surgery that’s what really makes me money, in my opinion. Having a nice artwork, having a nice website you’re better off saving the money and spending on a nice website. Truth be told, that’s what will get you. A lot of dentists want to get 8-debt 500 chairs. No, I’m not sponsored by any of the chair companies. Okay, just claim it in. But a lot of dentists say, oh yeah, I want the top of the range chair and I think who cares? Which patient has ever sat on that chair and said this is an 8-debt 500 chair? Fair play to you, james. You’ve bought one of the best chairs on the box. Nobody cares, yeah they won’t know.

Dr James: 

They won’t know. It’s like I mean, here’s the thing it all comes from the same place and it’s just wanting to serve the patient to a really high standard. Right, and here’s the thing having the awareness to realise what impresses a dentist versus what impresses a patient Right, and here’s the thing. It’s like maybe we don’t necessarily have to do too much of one or the other, are you with me? But we just have to be conscious of what the patient is thinking. Right, because that is the main thing that’s going to drive value towards the practice the perception of value which ultimately results in remuneration.

Dr Jamil: 

So I think the most important areas in a dental practice are not your surgery, because the patient is panicking. They’re bombarded with information. They pop back bright lights in their eyes. All that matters to them the waiting room, how the waiting room smells and how nice is the waiting room, the reception and also the toilet. They’re the three main areas that need to look nice. If you’re going to spend money on anything, it’s their three areas. If that’s what leaves a lasting impact to a patient, it’s not about how big your screen is. In your surgery Nobody cares. Okay, when they’re sitting there and they’re not under pressure and they’re not having to communicate with somebody, or they’re not worrying and they’re just really looking around, thinking blind. This is a nice surgery. That’s what they remember. What do you think, james? Do you think and you know you actually hit the nail on the head, james Us dentists we worry about, we worry too much that what a patient really thinks. I’ll give you an example. When you’re doing a filling or a cram, sometimes you’re struggling to get a margin. Let’s say you’re struggling to get a D on margin and a low left sink. You’re spending another five minutes. I don’t know if this ever happened to you. But it’s happened to me where I think, oh, the patient must think I’m incompetent because they realize it’s taken me so long to do a Dist or margin. You naturally think the patient thinks the patient must think, bless me, because it’s taken me so long. The patient doesn’t know how long a cramp or a pig, so it doesn’t take. And once you get into that mindset you realize what’s the problem. Things like. So I advise a lot of dentists that are looking to start up a squat. Some of them say, oh, I need to go buy an ITERO on day one. Nobody needs to buy an ITERO on day one. Okay, you don’t even have five patients on your list at the moment. Forget about my ITERO. Treat a patient. Use potty and water at the beginning. Grow initially. Spend on spending 500 pound on an ITERO. Spend on Google ads. Spend on Facebook ads. Get patients through your door and then later on in line. Maybe you can get an ITERO, but there’s a lot of things that you don’t need to get straight away. I’m in that position where I’ll get whatever I need to get straight away, because we’re self-funded, because my cost to build is so low, it doesn’t really matter.

Dr James: 

You know what. It’s really clever. Where did you get all this wisdom from? Was this just stuff that you learned on the job? Do you have a mentor? Do you network with a lot of dentists?

Dr Jamil: 

I try and keep away from dentists myself. Okay, the reason I do it is because I think dentists personally from my experience dentists are very because you’re in a job that grosses so much high money or grosses a lot of money they don’t care about the nitty gritty things. In my opinion. I’ve met a lot of dentists saying oh, is a who case? Is a phone liquid for an Invisalign for an ITERO machine? I think that’s phone liquid that I’d rather have in my pocket. You’ll hear a lot of it. But dentists say, oh, who case? It makes me X amount. But dentists only think about turnover. They never think about profit. Very rarely. They’ll think, oh, this is a 10 grand case. By the time you pay for your overhead cheer time, all the subscription you have in your dental plan is not actually much left. So I try and be as lean as possible as a dental practice. The more profit I make, the better for me. The less I can charge a patient, the happier, the easier. I sleep at night If I don’t have a 10 grand monthly payment to make to the bank or leasing companies. I sleep better at night If I take a week off. I’m not worried that damn it. I’ve got to pay 8 grand to a finance company at the end of the month so I’m very risk adverse. I know your dentists are good invest. Maybe your people will listen to you like risk but I’m very, very risk adverse. I hate risk. I’m in a very fortunate position where I can afford the nicer things in life. But even things like buying a car on finance 600 pan a month everyone was like, oh, you can easily pay that. But I think about what if something happens to me and that responsibility is left with my wife? I don’t want to leave that hardship to anyone if I ever go. So I’ve always cared about building lean companies with very good we spoke about this on the first podcast but good debt turnover profit ratios.

Dr James: 

You know it’s interesting to hear you say about the risk thing, because let’s look at this from another perspective A lot of people might look at you, Jamil, and think, whoa, this guy has created three dental practice at 28. This guy sails close to the wind, he likes to roll with the ice in life because that’s how you’re successful in business. So it’s interesting to hear you say that. Yeah, it’s interesting because from the outside, looking in, some people might get that impression right. And then from your perspective you’re like no well, I do these things and because I manage the risk so well that these things that seem risky actually they’re not so risky from my end, because my cash flow is amazing, I’ve got a good profit margin and it’s not like I’m spending loads of it whimsically. Right, Because here’s the thing, right. If you don’t have that mindset, what I’ve always noticed is in business you basically just do what you feel okay. That’s what I mean is, if you have a good month, right, most people are like, oh well, I’ll spend a little bit then, right. If you have a little bit of a slow month, most people are like, oh my God, I’ve got to work really hard to fix this. Are you with me, you know what I mean. So it’s recognizing that side or aspect of your human nature and then not letting it determine your actions too much, or having some sort of financial target and then hitting that, whatever that financial target is, and when you know you’ve done the math, that when you know you hit that financial target, that that gives you a huge amount of breathing space. That’s the other way to overcome that. It’s either from being a little prudent or by having some sort of target that means that you’ve got more than enough to suit whatever you’re spending on.

Dr Jamil: 

So in the midst of COVID, what happened was actually yeah, about a year after COVID, yeah, a year after COVID. What happened was I’ll show you how risk adverse I am. Okay, year after COVID I had enough money in the bank to clear my loan off. Okay, and the bank manager sat down with me and said look on a Zoom call was like Jamal don’t, you’re never going to find interest rate this low. And I know this ideology of use other people’s money to make money. But for me it’s not that. For me, it’s what happens if I die and then suddenly can’t keep up the payments. All I want to do is just be profitable. And to finish off, james, is one thing I want to tell people. A lot of people appear very successful on that outside. Okay, I analyze accounts. My wife calls me a loser by analyze accounts. In my free time I’ve analyzed hundreds of different practices and even limited company. I’ve seen it. And one thing I find is that the debt to profit ratio is out of this world. Most practice, that most practices, will spend a million pounds to be generating profit. As principle led over 180,000. That is just a normally large. You could do that a lot quicker with a lot less budget. So when anyone listening to this and feel feeling about shit about themselves, just bear in mind you do not know what loan to what loan that practice has. Although they turn it over as much as they are, maybe they have to in order to be sustainable. Otherwise they’ll go six foot under very quickly.

Dr James: 

You know what right? I actually shot another podcast earlier today and what was? What was the stat that somebody threw out? They said that 90% of podcasts, 90% of dental practices in the UK have a turnover of 600,000 or under Right. So that blew my mind, because you always hear about dental practices are turning over like flipping X, y and Z. You know what I mean and it seems that those are the majority of dental practice Practice. This you know. When you hear about a dental practice turning over, however many million, and you tend to think to yourself that that’s representative of what most people are doing. Actually, that’s an extreme outlier 90% or under 600K. It was the fact that somebody threw to me earlier and that surprised me. I thought it would be like 50% or under 600K, or maybe like 30% or under 600K, 90%.

Dr Jamil: 

That’s all I think people need to realize is don’t look up, always look down. Sometimes I have the tendency of looking up. I see some of my competitors doing extremely well and I’m saying you know what? I’m in a very fortunate position, but James, I believe you’ve got a shoot but can I just put a little message out there. If any of you guys need any advice about squat practice, I’m not any guru just feel free to DM me on dentistjamel and I’ll give you my honest opinion. I always have and always will.

Dr James: 

Talk stuff. Thank you so much for your time again, jamel. That was ever there was a very insightful podcast, ever insightful whenever I get you on. So thank you so much once more.

Dr Jamil: 

Thanks, I’m Sush Thanks.

Dr James: 

We’ll catch each other super soon. See you later.