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Dr James:
Welcome back everyone to the Dentist To Invest podcast very contemporaneous one today, but we’re here to talk about interest rates and how they affect our ability to borrow, and also what the lenders are achieving or doing in the practice finance market. So I have sat in front of me returning face from way back when Kevin Saunders. If anybody remembers Kevin on the podcast, it must have been like episode number 20. So hats off. You were a true loyal Dentist To Invest podcast fan and I’m impressed. Let’s say that. Anyway, kevin, how are you today?
Kevin:
I’m good. Lovely to be back again, James. Yeah, it was a long time ago. I seem to remember you were still a dentist at the time.
Dr James:
Yeah, well, there you go. Oh my God, Wow, I didn’t actually really think about that. Yeah, I was. Yeah, so that was at least over two years ago. At least over two years ago. There we are, Anyway, interesting. So I am just having a little moment just to process that. Anyway, Kevin, because that was way back when, whenever the podcast was just growing and obviously it’s growing a little bit now it’s a little bit bigger. We’ve got some different listeners and viewers from all across the world. Maybe it might be nice if you were able to do a little bit of a re-intro not an intro, but a re-intro about yourself.
Kevin:
Yes, of course. Okay, so I spent 30 years in banks. the last 10 years of my time I spent as the specialist dental financier for RBSnetwest. Then the following 11 years I have been independent, Again, dealing predominantly with dentists healthcare, but probably 18, 90% of what I do is dental. So helping dentists to buy, to expand, to buy equipment, just anything that a practice would need finance for.
Dr James:
Very, very, very cool. And we are here, of course, to talk about interest rates today, which I’m going to guess someone in your line of work probably has to be an expert on that right, because it determines so much of what you do At least that’s what I’m guessing, anyway. But anyway, we can establish that in just a minute. But before we do, before we do jump into that, maybe it might be nice to put into context what people are currently seeing contemporaneously these days, versus historically what has happened, because we’re in a little bit of a weird zone at the minute, aren’t we?
Kevin:
Yes, well, as you say, the interest rates are important because to get applications through the banks we have to calculate the interest rate and also provide a buffer as well or sensitize the interest rates, as the banks like to say. So in terms of what I’ve seen recently, i’ve seen a little bit of nervousness from first time buyers And it probably is around the interest rate, and it got me thinking about the fact that many dentists have grown up qualified and base rates have been half a percent and they probably perceive that to be the norm. But if we look at a very, very quick history of base rates, so if you go back to the 1980s I haven’t got exact figures here, but the average rates were 11% to 13% the base rate during the 1980s And you roll onto the 1990s and it was pretty similar at the beginning. But by the sort of mid to late 90s rates came down to 5% to 7% And I remember thinking at the time this is an absolute gift. These rates are so low And at the time I think the UK was trying to get in line with Europe, which is why they came down so low. Then onto the the noughties and that’s probably where things stabilized that kind of 3.5 to 5%, that kind of band of, and they always go up and down, but it was kind of in that kind of area. And obviously what changed then was the credit crunch, which hit to 2007, 2008, depending on exactly where you were And the rates just before the credit crunch. I remember I had a base rate track and mortgage and it was base rate was at 5.75 just before credit crunch hit. And then we had rates suddenly historic low rates of half a percent, quarter of a percent, and that was fluctuating like that for a very long time. And I looked earlier. I was surprised to see actually in August 2018, the rate went up to 0.75%. So basically for 10 years it’s stuck down at half a percent to quarter of a percent 0.75, although today now seems really cheap. I think that was tentatively at that point was an attempt to start raising the rates and probably think we’ll slowly get people back to more normal rates If we do this over a period of years to two or three percent. And then obviously, what spoke the thumb was the virus hit and rates went down again And more recently, with the problems with inflation, rates have suddenly rocketed And they’re back today, as of today, 22nd of June, to 5% base rate. So from history you can see that isn’t particularly high, but obviously after having now 12 years of very low rates, it feels horrific. So the important thing to say is when we look at applications both I and the banks we’ll basically calculate based on today’s rates, but we also add in a margin for error as well, for error for rises. So anyone that enters into a loan and the practice has been assessed we’ve already looked at whether this can afford to pay the loan at higher rates and make sure that the applicant doesn’t get into trouble. But it obviously does mean people have to tighten their belts because there’s not so much fat in it. Now The net profit is squeezed a bit more with repayments and it’s back to how it used to be in the old days, which is rates going up and down and you sort of ritual poorer depending on the base rate.
Dr James:
In short, Cool, kevin, you know what. Here’s what was going through my head whenever you were listening. That’s really, really, really important to put everything into context. So we’ve got something to compare to. So how does the Bank of England interest rate necessarily affect the rate at which lenders will give us finance for practice? What is that mechanism? Because for me that’s fascinating And I’ve got a rough idea of how it works. But it’ll be interesting to hear someone like yourself who studies this day in, day out. Yeah, i’d like to hear how that works. That’ll be interesting.
Kevin:
Of course, it’s very simple actually, because commercial loans are generally base related at this level. So I’m going to say there are some different types of loans out there, but generally when the banks lend to a dentist, unless you take a fixed rate, they’ll be looking at base rate plus a margin And, to give you a rough idea, a margin or an unsecured practice as in you know, but you’re buying a practice on a 15-year lease might be about 3%. It could be a bit lower, could be a bit higher, but just as an idea. So you’re now paying an all-in rate of 8%. So, to make it more understandable, it’s a little bit like taking a base rate tracker on a mortgage when you buy a residential property. That’s the commercial version of AeroBall, though, So it goes up and down with the base rate.
Dr James:
Got you Right, ok, cool. So naturally, interest rates getting hacked then logically might be stating the obvious here. Then what that means is the interest rate at which we can borrow money to finance our practices also gets hacked as well. Right, so that’s what we’re observing right here, right now. So you hinted at this earlier, you alluded to this Borrowers getting a bit skittish. What have you seen? What have you seen out there in the world? What have you seen out there day to day?
Kevin:
Before I say that I’ve just mentioned that, the bank margins, so the margin they put on top of the base rate, which is the money they make. Basically they haven’t really changed. They’ve been similar now for the last couple of years and they’re actually quite good. There was a point after the credit crunch where they pushed up a bit and they came back down. So the banks haven’t reacted in any way at all, it’s just the base rates gone up. That’s why loans are more expensive in this space. So that’s the first thing to say. And also the bank’s stance to the sector hasn’t changed either. They are very, very positive about dentistry. They still see it as a green light in growth sector. They haven’t really changed their policy or guidelines in terms of how they lend. But the only thing I’ve seen on applications is that they’re a little bit more rigid when asked them to flex. You know, as in, if I try and break one of the rules and push the boundaries a bit, sometimes you can get away with that in the good times, but right now they’re coming back and sticking to their policies. So that’s how the banks see it. They still see it as a strong sector. I have seen in the first time by market, though a little bit more uncertainty drop off in the number of applications Doesn’t mean that they’re not out there people buying, and I still am dealing with associates and helping to buy their first practice. But there’s also a lot of cases where associates will get an application approved and then say I just don’t know if I want to buy it or not. I’m just just uncertain about buying the practice. So part of my job is to actually break down the numbers and show them exactly how much money they’ll make out of this and prove to them they’ll be safer going forwards. But I guess the first hard lesson to learn is that sometimes when you buy a practice you’re actually not quite as wealthy as you were when you were an associate. You have to take a period where you actually just aren’t earning as much money for the greater good, the longer term view, which is you’ll grow into practice and eventually earn more. And I have a lot of conversations with dentists about the fact that you can’t buy a practice, pay the associates to run it and just turn up a couple of days a week to do implants and expect to pay the loan, earn more money than you did before And you know, something has to give somewhere. So a lot of conversations about that. I very rarely now have the conversation that I’ve been having for the last 20 years, which is trying to persuade associates that they don’t necessarily always need an NHS contract and that private can be good as well. Most people just want private now. So that shows you the shift away from an NHS, although I sat in on a talk from a value earlier and they were saying NHS is still very strong as long as you get the right UDA rates and it’s well managed. It’s still a very strong proposition. It’s not going away. But I think most associates at the moment realise you have to pedal quite fast and it’s uncertain times, hard to get staff, whereas private’s been. It’s still got some issues, but it’s been having a bit of a golden era for the last couple of years. Next point would be the demand for squat finance against established practice finance. There’s definitely a spike in people asking about finance for starting practices up, which is something, again, i’m quite passionate about. I’ve helped people over the last 20 years to do that. The only thing I would say about that is you need to be the right sort of person. You’ve definitely got to have a BD hat on The business development side is very important. The clients don’t just roll through the doors, you have to drag them in, basically, and bank lending is much more generous for established practices. So I often say to people if you’re going to think about starting a squat up, why don’t you also look for a rundown practice? that’s maybe uncompliant, that’s cheap and you could just spend a bit of money on and the hard work’s done at the beginning. You’ll get more money from the bank, it’s more generous and you haven’t got all the hassle with the building works at the beginning, just a bit of refurbishment costs. So quite a lot of that going on as well. And then really just talking about the levels of debt and working through that calculation that I mentioned earlier And actually I’ve got a few examples here of what I do with people. So, for example, if we take a purchase price of about 600,000 on a practice and that rate we talked about earlier, the base rate of 5% plus 3% on top, about 8% servicing costs on that are about 69,000. And then what I would do is I would sensitize that to present to the banks And every bank has its different rate, but again to give you a very broad brush approach, i’d probably push it up to maybe 11%. So that takes the servicing costs from 69,000 up to 82,000. So I’m having those kind of conversations with clients and saying, look, here we go. You need to best to go in thinking about the 82,000. You’ll have more money than that because your servicing costs will be 69,000 at the beginning. But go in knowing that the practice can afford that and figure out how much salary you can draw, what your personal expenditure is, and always best to know the worst case scenario and then you won’t get caught out. Basically, yeah.
Dr James:
So you’re building a little bit of a give in to the figures right Effectively, And 15 years, is that your typical repayment period?
Kevin:
It is if there’s no property. So again, very broad brush. Banks are different, but an average kind of lend would be for an unsecured loan, a goodwill loan, 15 years and you’ll need a 15-year lease to cover that. If there’s a property, it’s really generous. If there’s a property, you can get 100% and up to 25 years. So the loans are slightly different. An example I gave you there was for a practice without a property, just on a 15-year lease.
Dr James:
Right, okay, okay. So basically it’s nuanced. Basically, yeah, but we can paint with broad strokes.
Kevin:
Every deal is different. Every practice is different. It’s really hard. People often ask me for generic sort of averages, and it’s just so hard because you can have two practices in the same area, same turnover and the profits are vastly different. So it just depends really.
Dr James:
Cool. There’ll be people who are listening to this and they’re thinking, oh okay, maybe noise the time for me to set up my first practice and get some finance for it, or thinking about buying their first practice. So again, just speaking really high level and with broad strokes, as you were saying earlier, what tips, what advice can you give those people? What are the common things that you see that you think to yourself do you know what most people could do this better? if they could just change this, this, this and this, they’d get a better deal, something like that.
Kevin:
Yes. So the first thing is start talking to a professional advisor early. You can get some feedback on your own finance and personal information. The next bit of advice I give to most of my clients, which sounds really simple, is just bank as much money as you can. cash is king. If you’re looking at starting a practice up, generally the bankers will fund about 70% of the total set up costs, so you need that 30%. If you’re buying a practice, you need 20% for goodwill. So just bank as much as you can, because obviously goodwill values are high at the moment.
Dr James:
Cool. So those are the main two.
Kevin:
Well, i mean, there’s other things if we want to really go into it. It could be, for example, on a CV try and get some management experience on there. That could be fairly simple. It could be that you’ve managed some staff or managed some UDAs. Whatever it is that will set you aside from the average client who just puts the clinical experience on there, which is also important. But for the bank’s point of view, anything like that will be well received.
Dr James:
What would you say the average age of someone who purchases their first practices in your experience?
Kevin:
That’s a really good question. I’ve come to people from probably 20s and 30s is the average, yeah. But then you know, people come to me at all stages in life. I’ve had associates that are in their 50s come along and say, look, i’ve been working as a social my life. I’ve got the chance of buying the practice that I work in. It’s never too late Providing it. It’s a good practice, it serves as the debt and it makes sense to buy it, and there’s no right or wrong answers in that.
Dr James:
Really, Yeah, okay, but you just said something that I think will be really valuable What makes a good practice or a good opportunity versus not so good opportunity? that would be super valuable. But before we do that, i’m just really curious to ask what is the youngest person that has ever come to you and has successfully applied to finance. What age were they, do you?
Kevin:
know what. I don’t have exact figures for that, but if you think it through, what’s the youngest you could qualify at? Okay, got you, yeah.
Dr James:
And you’ve got to work it back from there.
Kevin:
I mean ideally. The bank would like to see three years experience after qualification.
Dr James:
Yeah.
Kevin:
And a ton of people that would come to me after their three years and be buying a practice then, and sometimes we can get away with a bit less. So there are some people that have qualified, maybe done a year of ET in a year, pretty qualified, and bought a practice then. So again, no right or wrong answer, but three years after qualifications, definitely a ton of people are thinking about it.
Dr James:
Cool And even still, that’s still pretty flipping young in your career.
Kevin:
He’s really young, yeah, that’s still really young.
Dr James:
That was not on my radar three years ago. And let me just speak. You know, dentist to dentist For the moment you’re a dentist, obviously me being a dentist to the dentist who are listening And one of the greatest limiting beliefs I had in hindsight whenever it came to owning a dental practice was that I had to hit a certain level of clinical expertise before I could think about that, or I had to get to a certain level of ability at composites or get a certain qualification. What a load of absolute baloney, honestly right. I wish I could go back and grab myself and shake myself and say, james, that’s nonsense. There’s not actually any. There’s not actually any level of clinical expertise that you necessarily need to go on a dental practice. It’s a slightly different skill set than anything. This is business skill set And if you can grow that alongside enhancing your clinical abilities, then what it means is that you learn even more. Yeah, and I really wish I could have told myself that you know going back.
Kevin:
It’s easy looking in from the outside, and I was about to say to you that that’s the answer. It’s about managing business. It’s not about your clinical ability, although obviously, if you’re a terrible business manager but you’re great clinician, the practice is going to be okay because you’re going to generate high level of fees And even if your expenses are too high you’re still going to be okay. But if you can learn how to manage a practice, you can be very young. Without the clinical ability. You can go and buy a private practice from a dentist who’s saying he’s 50s, wants to step back to being an associate. I’m really happy to help you manage the practice and learn that way and learn from him clinically, and I’ve seen so many dentists do that. It’s such a nice way of doing it And it’s also nice for the vendor because it’s his baby, he wants to stay on, he’s got a younger person coming in, he can help them and so win, win all around really.
Dr James:
Yes, that, or even outsourcing a mentor who can teach you stuff as well. Because what I didn’t appreciate when I had that mindset was that lots of things in life compound right. And compounding is a function of two things The sooner you start and also the rate of appreciation right. They’re the two things that determine the compounding growth. So let’s bring that into finance for two seconds. So if you’ve got stocks right and they’re appreciating at a rate of 10% a year versus stocks that are appreciating at a rate of 11% a year, obviously the 11% a year one will appreciate faster, but towards the end of that process it’ll grow exponentially right? So the difference between a 10% portfolio over 30 years and the 11% portfolio is something like twice as much right? The 11% one gives you twice as much right. So here’s the thing The sooner we start that process is, the sooner that compounding effect occurs. And it doesn’t just apply to finance, it applies to knowledge as well. And I wish that I would have started that compounding process in business knowledge sooner, because I can now see how that will grow like the butterfly effect and give me exponential returns with time if I would have just started. But of course I’m going to counterbalance that and say let’s all not go wild and buy general practices, but what I am saying is that it’s worth considering.
Kevin:
Definitely. It’s like buying a property, isn’t it? We all know that if you jump on sooner rather than later, you’ll be richer quicker. Basically, i mean there might be bumpy times when mortgage rates go up or whatever, but in the same general practice is that probably the better deals and the cheaper rates were there before, it was easier to get money. It gets harder as time goes on. So it’s best to jump on as soon as you can. If that’s your goal, and as long as you assess the practice properly and make sure it can service the loan and pay your salary, then yeah, you jump on and you take in mentors, as you say. I mean there’s people out there that you can pay to be a practice manager or just to assess the practice and make sure it’s all above board, without having to take them on as a full-time member of staff and commit to a full-time salary. You can take them off six months, pay them as a consultant.
Dr James:
Yes, 100%, and when you get the right mentor, they genuinely care and want to see you do well. Those are the best mentors, right, because they’re they’re hearts on the line almost as much as yours is, which is crazy, and that’s a really powerful thing to appreciate. And the other thing that I was going to say as well, just going back to our conversation about the compounding process and a proportion, what contributes towards compounding part of that equation is the sooner that you start right, the record that I’ve ever seen in terms of age versus dental. You know this, the youngest person we’ve ever seen to acquire dental practice. I know of one person that I had in the podcast and he was age 28, and he had three dental practices, which is flipping nuts, okay, and he even said himself he was. That was the thing you know talking to that guy And I’ve said his name actually loads in the podcast. So I’m not going to mention him again because people are going to start telling it on banging on a bottom way too much. But it’s just, it’s just interesting to bring it up. He, you know he was saying that the only thing he really likes to do is pull teeth. Is he a neural surgeon? No, he’s not an oral surgeon, he just likes to pull teeth, or is. And he even was saying that his composites he hasn’t. You know, he hasn’t done a composite in three years, right, but my most metrics he’s done really well because he’s got these practices right, whereas lots of us or at least I was I was focusing on get my composites to a certain point. Okay, sounds mad, right, when I look back on it before I took the leap, but actually I would have been better off learning both in tandem. But anyway, i mentioned this just a minute ago and I do want to just track back to it What makes a good opportunity in terms of a dental practice, what makes a good opportunity good And what makes a not so good opportunity Not so good.
Kevin:
Yep, i think basically it’s about crunching the numbers. I mean there’s one side of it which is only the dentist can answer, which is going in and the feel of the practice And you know whether you see themselves working there. So that side really is very personal. It’s like buying a house. The other side of it it’s quite basic really. It’s you know what’s the ability to expand the practice. If it’s, if it is up there at the moment, you know almost functioning capacity, can another surgery be installed, for example? the premises allow for that? And it’s crunching numbers. It’s looking at the numbers at the bottom and saying is there enough here to cover the loan, cover personal expenditure, and is this safe? It really is as simple as that. And then after that, just going back to what you’re talking about a moment ago again, you don’t have to be all things to all people. Is the practice? you know what are the opportunities? Is the practice referring out additional services? Could they be brought in house, with a practitioner who, a specialist, who comes in and works in house and you get a share of that income. You don’t have to do everything yourself. So yeah, i think it’s just assessing those things. What’s the ability to grow the practice going forward If they’re already doing implants in Visalign, chairs are maxed out, you know. Can it be grown? Or are you just going to buy a practice that will service a loan and pay it down, which, again, some people do that because they just take the view when in 15 years I’ve got an asset which will have grown in value and the loan’s paid off. So it’s bought me an asset. But I think more people actually want to look these days at how they can grow the practice And that’s obviously where you make the serious money. And no disrespect to the retiring dentists. They’re probably kind of similar age to me but they’ve done their time, they’ve gone through the changes that they’ve had to go through And they probably don’t always want to be involved in the latest things that are coming through. So those are the perfect dental practices to buy because you can then add on the Visalign whatever services you’re going to offer And you can see a step up from what’s already profitable to achieving a much higher level of profit. So that’s the sort of long rambling answer. But I suppose what to avoid? One surgery practices that haven’t got the ability to fit a second surgery out pretty dangerous because probably not going to get much in terms of good will going forwards and you can’t make enough income either. Obviously, you’re paying over the top for practice as well And saddling yourself with a level of debt that’s just too high. Basically, you’re going to be working just to pay that debt for the next 15 years. There will be, as part of the process in obtaining finance, a qualified value going out to value the practice. There is a point where you get some feedback on that and you get to find out I mean, it doesn’t always line up exactly with the agent or what the vendor wants, because the market’s quite buoyant, but as long as it’s sort of there or thereabouts. So it’s just avoiding paying over the top, making sure the scope to expand the practice, that the basic things really change And then and the dentist themselves actually seeing themselves working there, enjoying the area, the people and the location of the practice.
Dr James:
One of my friends into buying practice and doing them up. Right, And he is over the philosophy that it’s all about the practice, that there’s lots of headspace for growth because they give you the best returns right, And he says he’s calling card, or his hallmark, that he looks for in practice before he buys them. He figures out whether or not, or he asks or inquires whether or not they have digital x-rays or the old analog ones, the chemical ones, yeah, And if they said that they have the analog ones, right, Then he is way more. His interest is like through the roof at that point. Right, Because he’s like, ah well, not only do they have this, but they probably haven’t upgraded this, this, this, this and this. Right, Because it’s kind of like a statement about the practice in a broader sense. Do you know what I mean? right, And it’s not like he goes for everyone just because they have that, but he’s certainly it’s his, his, his pickle is tickled. Let’s say that he’s intrigued.
Kevin:
And it’s funny because you do see a lot of dentists that won’t buy the practice unless it’s got all the latest gadgets and it’s really beautifully decorated and clinical. But obviously that comes at a premium. I’m not saying that’s the wrong approach to take. If you’ve got the money to spend, then fine, But personally I, exactly as your friend says I think you look for the one where needs a bit of updating, needs modernizing, and you’re getting it for a more reasonable price, Although even those ones are expensive. But there’s room for growth there. That’s the way to really make the most money in in the short to medium term.
Dr James:
Yeah, 100% Yeah, because there’s got to be some headspace for growth, right, you know? and even if you can, it’s like if you’re, if the practice is already nine out of 10, then taking it from nine out of 10 to 10 out of 10, you know, you’re talking about these incremental little returns at that level, just like athletes, like the flipping world’s fastest runner, like using both or whatever right, they’re like one, they’re like three 100s of a second. You know faster than the next guy. Do you know what it means? So, like little tiny margins, do you know what it means? And that applies to anything. It applies to absolutely anything. But of course it’s not just you know a blanket sweeping step and you can just go on by any of them. Are you with me? But it’s some logic or it gives you a good filter through which to make decisions.
Kevin:
And that potential for growth actually brings us full circle, back to the interest rate talk. Because if you go in and knowing the interest rates are now higher and fluctuating and potentially who knows going forward but not going to go back to that half a percent, then the way to get yourself into a safer position is to grow the fee income And then suddenly the loan doesn’t seem quite so high And you know you need to have the growth in the practice, otherwise you’re up against it And if the rate goes up a bit more, you know you’re not, your fees aren’t going up either, you’re just just where you are basically.
Dr James:
Good stuff. The golden question, Kevin What happens next with interest rates?
Kevin:
I’ll be shocked for answering that.
Dr James:
I mean you’re not going to get me Who?
Kevin:
knows, if we went back not so long ago, who would have foreseen the current rises. So I don’t know, i mean it is crystal ball territory, but I don’t think we’ll go back to half a percent. And, to be honest with you, when we’re at that kind of stage, because something bad happens, something pretty terrible has happened, like the credit crunch or the virus, i see you almost don’t want them to go back to that kind of level. But yeah, i mean, the thinking is that they’ll peak pretty soon and then drop down. Yeah, let’s all hope they do drop a little bit more. And as to where they settle, who knows? I keep thinking about sort of the noughties when it was three and a half to five percent. I’m thinking that that might be the new normal. I’m just not sure.
Dr James:
Any sort of timeframe on that as well? I know that that’s you know. We’re trying to build something you know concrete on something that’s fundamentally not concrete in the first place. Do you know what I mean? But can you even give us any information on when that might happen?
Kevin:
I don’t know. I know no more than you really, and I’d be crazy to actually get that. I don’t know. Let’s just hope it’s not too long.
Dr James:
That’s all I’m going to say I like that. Okay, cool, kevin, we’re going to wrap up a RhynoBike night. Is there anything that you’d like to say in conclusion to anybody who’s listening?
Kevin:
But I think just to conclude is to say you know the higher interest rates are here now. They’re not going to go anywhere anytime soon. So if you are interested in buying a practice, you probably just need to think about it in a slightly different way. Don’t hold out for the rates to go back to half percent or the base rates to go back to half percent. Assess it differently and just build in that higher loan cost and think about some of the things we’ve been talking about, such as the potential to grow the business.
Dr James:
Oh, i’m going to take you on a convention. Kevin, you’ve got a PDF, i believe, on practice finance things you need to know about practice finance. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yep.
Kevin:
So it’s really my view on things to do when you’re applying for finance, based on my experiences as a bank manager in the past, because you’d often find that people think they know what a bank wants to see, but in reality it might be slightly different. So, yeah, I’ve just got a PDF on things to look at when applying for finance.
Dr James:
That would be very cool. It sounds very useful, and how might anybody go about obtaining that phone number? email?
Kevin:
Okay, both either, or. So the mobile number is 07801440622 and email address is Kevin at. Saroma which is s-a-r-o-m-acouk.
Dr James:
Top stuff. Kevin, thank you so much for coming on the Dentist Invest podcast today, first one of many. Let’s not leave it for flipping three years or whatever it was, before we get you back on. Let’s make it more of a regular thing.
Kevin:
Anyway, thanks so much, i’ll catch up again. You’re welcome. Thank you very much.
Dr James:
Much love. We’ll see you guys soon. Bye-bye, bye.