Dr James:
Fans of the Dennis who Invest podcast. If you feel like there was one particular episode in the back catalog in the anthology of Dennis who Invest podcast episodes that really, really really was massively valuable to you, feel free to share that with a fellow dental colleague who’s in a similar position, so their understanding of finance can be elevated and they can hit the next level of financial success in their life. Also, as well as that, if you could take two seconds to rate and review this podcast, it would mean the world. To me, what that would mean is that it drives this podcast further in terms of reach so that more dentists across the world can be able to benefit from the knowledge contained therein. Welcome, welcome to the Dennis who Invest podcast. Welcome back, everyone for another episode of Dennis who Invest official podcast. We’re on podcast number six, as it happens now, and I thought I wanted to do something a little bit different today, something a little bit more romanticized. Interesting because we’ve been very, very well. We stuck to the theme of finance, but we’re digressing a little bit with branch and out. We’re seeing what else can we invest in or maybe think about to diversify our portfolio as dentists. On that note, I’ve got somebody on here today who knows a lot about the subject of this podcast, the subject of art, that is. She is a specialist orthodontist. She lives down in London. She is somebody who has been previously. Very well, she works for the Tate. Am I right in saying that?
Annika:
I don’t know I’m feeling it. Is that a bad word? Maybe I wouldn’t say affiliated. I’m definitely a member of the Tate, but I work through another gallery that helps me collect my art and things like that.
Dr James:
I see. Well, regardless, she knows a lot about the subject of art. I’m hoping today that she can elevate our collective consciousness, because I am a self-admitted complete oath when it comes to these sort of things. She’s a culture vulture, she’s an orthodontist, she’s got loads to say on the subject of art. Her name is Anika Patel. How are you today?
Annika:
I’m great. Actually it’s my favorite topic. Love a bit of chat about this.
Dr James:
Brilliant, I’ll open it. You can enlighten us, or our collective consciousness, because I will admit that it is something that I do not know the first thing about. So I’m sure there’s lots to be learned on here today. There’ll be people out here listening who are curious, who know a little bit more than me. We’re going to try to pander and cater to everybody today. I think it’s going to be great fun. I just wanted to talk a little bit about yourself, anika, first of it’s all right with you. So you’re a dentist, as we’ve already described or misdescribed, affiliated with the tape, not quite something along those lines. Perhaps you’d like to go into a little bit more detail and just tell me about your journey into being a dentist and your journey into art, if that’s okay.
Annika:
Right. So obviously when we’re choosing what career we go into, a lot of us sort of you know, do a bit of work experience, get into dentistry, job done, pass out the other side. I actually my biggest aspiration. I just really wanted to do history of art at Goldsmiths. So did my UCAS to do history of art at Goldsmiths and ended up being a dentist on the other side. So you can imagine how many friends I made when I ended up at uni like not many. You know, most dentists use the left side of their brains. Everyone’s very academic you know very maths science orientated. You know it’s very tricky when you’re right sided, predominantly because you’re creative. You know there are loads of blurred lines, you’re not thinking as rigidly as everybody else. You say what you want. You flow in a different way and you know you might have different interests. So I remember being at uni it was only about three of us that actually liked art and that sort of that side of culture. So yeah, no, that’s how I basically just carried on with art. So I basically kept the interest. Going through dental school didn’t obviously do the history of art degree really sort of shot myself for that because I really wish you know I had done that a little bit. But now obviously I’m in a very secure career, I’d say, and there’s no harm in now going back and doing what you know my true love was really.
Dr James:
Yeah, I see brilliant. So you’ve always had this long term, I suppose, passion for it and that’s developed or evolved through time. Was there like an early moment in your life that sort of instigated this interest in art, or was it always just a deep set passion? Do you remember seeing a piece, a piece of art? I’m thinking to yourself, wow, that’s so interesting and it completely ignited your passion from that point forwards. Or was it just always something there’s no precise specific memory. It’s just always something that’s been an interest of yours.
Annika:
So my earliest memory would be when I was a teenager. I went to the tape our keyword for today, tape written and I saw a John Singer Sergeant painting called Gast and it is one of the biggest pieces I’ve ever seen in my life. So when you’re at school or you’re learning or you’re doing your A levels and you know, today level art got into dental school with my A and R, you know it’s been pretty focused. You’re just looking at books all the time and everything sort of 10 centimeters by five centimeters. You don’t see the depth or the scope or the symbolism of a piece until you actually see it in real life. You know it’s the same for a Jackson Pollock. You see it in real life and it’s like bloody hell. What’s that Like? You know you just see it in a book and it’s just a bit of flatter paint. So when you see sort of the vastness of something in real life, it’s a completely different story. And Gast is, you know it’s based on World War One. It’s based on, you know, all of the soldiers out there, you know leading each other one by one and it’s enormous. It is absolutely shocking to see.
Dr James:
See, it’s not actually a piece I’m familiar with, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s not famous. That’s by my own admission. That might be my lack of knowledge on the subject. Is that quite a famous piece then?
Annika:
I think it would be famous to sort of it’s not contemporary, it’s not modern. You know a lot of us nowadays, or you know we know all the modern stuff, don’t we? We’re very focused on sort of the Andy Warhols and you know things from sort of Banksy’s late 20th century, that sort of thing. You know it’s. John St Sargent is a famous artist. He’s famous enough to be seen in the Tate and that’s one of the merits and that’s one of the things you need to look for when you’re thinking about what to collect in.
Dr James:
Yeah, he might well be. I might have just embarrassed myself there to a lot of people listening who are more open with art, but never mind moving swiftly on, and I wanted to know, on top of that as well, how would you describe yourself as an artist, then, or as an art collector? Is there some specific theme that unites your collection? What’s your area of expertise? Is it paintings, watercoloring, sculptures?
Annika:
So, in terms of collecting, I’m into 80s graffiti art, bizarre contemporary modern art, that sort of thing. If I had to describe myself, I would say I was quite determined. If I see a piece, or I know a piece, or I know that something, or I know that an artist could potentially you know do well, then I stay focused, I search a lot of option results and I sort of monitor that artist and then I’ll go to a broker, because you always need a broker in this kind of industry in order to source things for you. So usually, have an artist in mind, go to my broker, say, look, I want a piece by this. Ideally I want an unsigned sign. Whatever you want to do, I’m pretty determined in what I want in terms of pieces. You need to be very decisive as well with art. It’s not one of those things that you sit on the fence. I guess it’s a bit like you know, when you’ve discussed trading and things in the past. It’s one of those situations that if you don’t think and know what you want on that second and it’s, you know, a prime piece, it will be gone in an hour.
Dr James:
I see interesting and really spell that out for some people listening who may not be as well, have such a knowledge of the art industry. You know people who are new to it or really have no background in it whatsoever. When you say that it’s necessary to have a broker, why is that the case? Is it generally difficult to go to the artist themselves and say, hey, I like your piece, let’s cut out the middleman. I’m going to pay you. You know this figure and that’s a negotiation between two parties. Why is a broker so commonly utilized?
Annika:
So what it is is, as dentists we’re a bit stuck because we’re stuck in clinic with our gloves on With these things. You need to be monitoring option results quite regularly. There’s something called ArtNet which you have to pay a subscription to. If you’ve got £400 lying around that you just say do you know what? I’m going to be a member of ArtNet, I’ll do all the research myself. That’s one way you can go. But you’ve got to remember with art it’s literally a supply and demand chain. That’s exactly what art collecting is. So it’s a little bit different to sort of financial markets, because you know the volatility is different. You know in the financial market you’ve got your volatility, whereas in art it is supply and demand. So you know there’ll be lots of things. In terms of the type of art that you might want, there’s different types. You may say I want a blue chip or I want a solid piece. In that instance, a solid piece is usually from someone who’s dead and dying. You’re not going to be able to approach them if they’ve gone. Basically in order to, you know, get your valuation. So it might be sourcing from someone in the States or Hong Kong or something like that. But if you go the way you’re saying in terms of an emerging artist. Of course you can approach an emerging artist. You don’t know what. They would sell it for you and you would have to research the values and things like that. But of course you could go to an emerging artist but that would be a long-term hold. You would have to sit on that for probably 10 to 15 years because really for emerging artists they might be cheaper but it’s only one in 20 that actually really make it.
Dr James:
I understand, so it’s basically a question of how much knowledge you have on the industry and, by and large, for all practical purposes, a broker is the way to go for most of us, by the sounds of it.
Annika:
Yeah, that’s completely correct. The other thing is, I guess, with trading, you guys you put it into sort of high, medium and low risk, don’t you? And if you, yeah, so, and it depends on how you see yourself as a person and what risk you want to take. If you have a lump sum of money and you say, well, do you know what I want to go for? Blue chip, high value, I know that this is guaranteed to stay the same or increase. You know that you would flip it in the next two to five years if you wanted to go more. You know it’s.
Dr James:
That’s a really good parallel to draw, actually, because I understand that a lot more. So the bigger established pieces, there are a lot less volatile potential, but they’re a lot more likely to make money over a period of time. I totally understand. Fair enough, good stuff. Yeah, thanks for that, annika. I wanted to ask as well, just while we’re discussing investments, why do you think art makes a good investment and where do you see it as part of a broader portfolio? Feel free to answer those two questions separately, because I’ve just chucked a fair bit at you there. There might be a lot you want to flesh out. Let’s just focus on why you think art makes a good investment in the first place.
Annika:
So, as long as you have a good piece and a good broker that is there to help you sort of make a good earning. Art’s very blurred, you know. The bigger drug addict you are, the bigger story you have behind you, the bigger the depth, the more that adds to you as an artist and that means, again, the demand is higher, so therefore the supply is higher, so the auction results are higher and therefore you’re more likely to buy a piece and sell it on. You know you go to the financial sector everything’s sort of a red line and it’s very rigid and you know you can’t get away with being a drug addict or any of the above. You know it’s very, very rigid and you know things are literally affected by sort of political statements. Volatility, you know, even gold is, you know, connected to the dollar, whereas with art it’s a completely different sort of trade. Essentially, and you know it basically means that you can choose the pieces that you want and you there’s a range of different types of pieces you can choose in terms of prices or, as I said, types of emerging, to blue anchors, you know, blue chip, that kind of thing.
Dr James:
Interesting stuff and do you have a play? Where do you see it fitting in broadly as part of a more general investment portfolio? Do you buy other things, or is this just something that you’ve solely focused your whole attention on?
Annika:
I think it’s really important to have a balanced portfolio. From being honest, you know things and they fluctuate so much you know. You know I’m obviously not an expert in property or anything like that, but you know you see property changing. You see, you know liquid assets changing constantly. Again, there’s a volatility. You know the nature of that is very volatile. So I have art as my main source of trade. However, it doesn’t mean that, you know, I don’t have a property. It doesn’t mean that you know I don’t invest in potentially smaller things. I think it’s important as dentists that you know we have some sort of pension, so a sip or something like that, to invest in. You know we should be using ice, as we should be. You know, not again putting all your eggs in one basket unless you’re really sure of that, of what you’re doing.
Dr James:
So is there a specific percentage of your portfolio that you would allocate to art, or is it as rigid and defined as that? Or is it just that you try to just broadly, generally diversify without putting actual figures on it?
Annika:
No, I would say about 90% of my portfolio is art. So you know, I’d say most of it now.
Dr James:
you know that’s a forte, though yeah, I’d say so. That’s to me, someone who specializes in a particular asset, to be more heavily leveraged in that asset, is more of a reasonable thing to do. So, anika is 90% in art, but whether or not that means that everybody should be 90% in art, that’s a whole other kettle of fish. Maybe it might be best to just start off with a smaller portion and then go from there, if that sounds reasonable to you, anika.
Annika:
That definitely sounds reasonable and I would sort of suggest actually researching, you know, what’s current, what’s not. The way I can just sort of explain art in terms of how current it is because, as I said, it is completely supply and demand, a bit like how we have social media and we have Instagram and we have things like that. You know, the more, I would say, with indentury, potentially, whoever has more followers maybe gets more patience via Instagram. It’s the same with art. Whoever has more followers on their art page or, you know, promotes for Rolls Royce or is on the front of a perfume bottle or anything like that, it’s again putting yourself out there and the marketing is heavier. So for an emerging artist, say, you said, oh, I haven’t got 60 grand, for example, I don’t want to, you know, go deep on this. I’ve got a couple of hundred pounds, a couple of thousand pounds that I just want to put into somebody that’s emerging. But what do I do? Because they could be current today and gone tomorrow, which happens, you know. You’ve just got to be careful for sure that you know a gallery is not plummeting all of their marketing into this one person and a year later, no new. There’s no new news. You know they’re still exactly the same as they were the year before. And then, essentially, you haven’t increased your value, you’ve stayed the same. So you’ve just got to be mindful of this.
Dr James:
This is why I love getting people on from varied assets, because the dynamics of each single one are so different and the rules that you have to play by are so very and you can be very you’ll fare with one and very skilled at trading options, stocks, gold, crypto, whatever, and then get completely caught out in another one because the dynamics of every single one are so unique, and I find that fascinating, actually, to hear you say that very, very interesting. With regards to your philosophy on investing in art, am I correct in saying there’s maybe two extremes? We’ve got the first extreme, and that is where you buy as many pieces as you can and you hope that there’s one or two in there that just skyrocket and if they do, they’ll skyrocket to such a degree that you’ll more than make your spending back on the others. Versus the second extreme, which is to buy a very few select pieces, maybe invest a lot more of your capital in those pieces, but from the point of view that you believe you have more of a discerning eye than everybody else, where’s your philosophy between those two extremes? Are you one? Are you the other? Are you somewhere in between?
Annika:
No, I’m the second, for sure. Oh right, interesting, great, yeah. So my rules, essentially, when I’m looking for a piece, I sort of say are they blue chips? So a blue chip is essentially a bit like trades it’s the higher value thing. So, in terms of art that you may know maybe cassoes and your war holes, people we actually know yeah, obviously, they’re worth millions. So I’m not going down that road, but something blue chip. The other thing you’ve got to look at is age. So, for example, I own a print from a Yaya Kusama. Kusama prints are. You know, a Kusama original is probably a couple of million pounds, right? So you’ve got to think okay, fine, but the woman’s 94 years old. She’s been for nine decades. She’s been pumping out art. Okay, so she’s very famous. You know there’s exhibitions all the time, but she’s 94. So I know that she’s on her way out, essentially, which is why I’ve invested. Now you might look at somebody who has just died. You know, for example, in 2017, I picked up a Richard Hamilton piece just after he died, a few months after he died and now I’m going to watch the change as he increases or as he changes, or as he becomes more well known, for example. So essentially, blue chip dead or dying, understanding their story. It’s not just somebody who’s come in, got a paintbrush, stuck it on a canvas, job done, it’s what’s the story behind everything? Who are they connected to? You know what’s happened. Why are they an influence? And more current artists you know the famous people like you know that we know at the moment, like Banksy, who’s looking back, who has influenced them and why. And you need to understand that whole story. And are they well established? You know what are you working towards? There’s a few things you need to look at. If you’re going down my route, if you’re looking at somebody emerging, as I said, you’ve got to look at things, really small things, like you know. Are they on an advert on the TV in the background? Are they, you know, promoting for Rolls Royce? Are they on perfume bottles? Have they got trainers released for them? You know, like Bradley, theodore, or you know there’s a few emerging artists that literally got. You know Nike or Puma. You know running after them. So, looking at these tiny things. Or, you know, are they shown in a gallery? So Tate, obviously Tate is our keyword. It’s a, you know it’s a very well established gallery. Are they showing any emerging artists, or are they showing any exhibitions or virtual online exhibitions? Because that’s what we’re doing in COVID times, you know, and once that sort of influence and popularity soars, the demand goes up and the options go up.
Dr James:
Let’s see. Yeah, that’s a rundown of the criteria that you kind of look for. But being someone who’s experienced in the art industry or being someone who’s done it for a little while longer, what do you think is a good philosophy for someone who’s maybe just thinking of starting out between those two extremes that we discussed there, maybe somewhere in the middle or maybe somewhere along the lines of playing it safe with the more blue chip ones, as we mentioned earlier?
Annika:
It depends on your cash flow. If I’m being completely honest, a lot of people will say you know, I’ve got a family, I’ve got better ways to spend my money. You know that’s the situation essentially. When you’re talking about blue chip you know your, you know minimum you’re basically saying do I have 60, 70,000 pounds lying around in order to put in something else? Exactly yeah. So when you say, well, what is my budget? That’s where it comes to with anything essentially right. So then you, yeah, we have to say, do I want signed or unsigned and work from there. If you were very low risk, or I would say low cash flow, medium risk, then you can look at an emerging artist. But again, as I said, you have to look at an emerging artist that potentially is not just come out but, you know, is a little bit further forward and has kind of, you know, been around a little bit. You’ve seen the marketing. You know, if only all of us had known in sort of 2008, you could pick up a bouncy print for sort of 500 quid. Then you know, and look at him now, sort of, you know, 12 years later. It is very difficult, it is risk and it is, you know, a bit of a gamble, to be honest.
Dr James:
I see interesting, interesting stuff. Do you have a favorite piece of art that you’ve ever picked up?
Annika:
Yeah, I have. Well, I have a favorite piece. It’s a Richard Hamilton original oil and canvas that I’ve picked up. I’ve got two favorites I’ve got one that basically has given me the biggest increase and I’ve got one that’s just got a very deep, dark story behind it.
Dr James:
That’s about a deep, dark story first. That sounds intriguing.
Annika:
Yeah, so Richard Hamilton is an artist that you will be hearing a lot about in the next couple of years he died in 2017, but he’s known in the art world as a godfather of art and he is a Banksy’s influence. So Banksy used there’s a lot of Richard Hamilton stuff and, yeah, so in the 80s, he basically used to graffiti shadowheads all over New York and Manhattan and it was a time where there were a lot of murders and these shadows would act as angels. So somebody was gonna monkey or murder you on the street, but see the shadow and they think it was a person and they’d run. So there was a symbolic of angels around New York and Manhattan. So he rose to fame in the 80s and the people that used to look up to him were actually Jean-Michel Baskette and Keith Herring, who, as we know now, baskette is a massive, massive. You know, artists everybody wants a basket if they’re billionaires. Essentially, his works go for millions and millions of pounds now. So Keith Herring and Baskett, they died very young, but they used to look up to Richard Hamilton tag on the back of him, etc. The problem is, I think you get famous, you fall into the plummet of drug addiction, heroin, all of that kind of stuff and that’s quite common for artists during that era. It was one of those things that happened, so he’s very famous. And then obviously it went very downhill. A lot of people used to sort of use him in time because he ended up homeless. So they used to say you know what? I’ll give you some money for a home to shelter or a hotel room if you could just paint me a canvas or do this. So people used to use him a lot over time and there is on Amazon Prime there is a documentary called the Shadowman. But essentially he’s got a really deep and dark story about where he was at his highs. At his lows they used not believing in consumerism and following Andy Warhol, baskett, keith Herring down one path and doing his own thing, and it’s just typical of knowing it’s being true to yourself and what you believe. And from what he believes, his story is a lot darker than the other guys. Maybe he’s not as famous as the other guys, but he was the leader. So it’s very interesting sort of where he’s gone and where he’s come to and his fortune passed away.
Dr James:
Now Would you say that because it’s an asset, there’s more romanticised and there’s a maybe bit a little bit more creative flair there that a story like that would drive value of his pieces in a way.
Annika:
A story like that would definitely drive value, because I mean he’s his connections that he had in the 80s, but also the fact that he’s passed away now. They’re the only two real factors. You know, anybody could sort of. You know, it’s like history, it’s like the Crown, season 4, how much is true, fact or fiction? You just don’t know how much it is, you know.
Dr James:
I think that’s really interesting.
Annika:
Yeah, it’s the Shadowman on Amazon Prime. Yeah, exactly.
Dr James:
I’m going to check that out. And you mentioned your second favourite piece there, so that was the one that Cole Hardcash had generated you the greatest return. So we don’t have to mention figures, of course, but can you give us an idea of what that piece was and maybe the percentage return that it generated for you?
Annika:
Yeah, during lockdown, obviously none of us were working. I put essentially, we’re called it a trade because that’s what it is. The art market completely, completely rose to crazy levels during lockdown. It was one of the biggest sectors for turnover and a lot of people were being you know, we can call it pronounced hesitation essentially and what do you buy, what do you not? But anybody in the art sector was saying, yeah, I’m going to put my money on this. You know, a lot of companies were liquidating. They were liquidating their assets, saying they need to cash now to sort of stay afloat during lockdown. So last year there was something in Croydon. There was a furniture shop that Banksy put up called the Gross Domestic Product, and at the time it was up for three weeks. People were sort of looking around. It was in all the papers, you couldn’t go in it and there were certain pieces in that shop that obviously if you’re an art collector, it stays in your mind for quite a long time. Banksy then put out a sort of fake marketing type situation where you bid for these certain items in the shop and to sort of input this answer to a question that he’d put on this website, on the GDP website, when it went live and it was basically what does art mean to you? It was just a question that Banksy had put up and obviously the whole world was sort of input you know, crashing this website of what to do. Essentially, there’s a lot of hype. That’s all it’s about, you know, creating these false exhibitions and false marketing boys to essentially increase hype. And there was a piece in there which was actually refuted in Barbican a few years back, which is a sort of merry-go-round with little people. Anyway, I got a print of that, a signed print, and I managed to get it very reduced, sort of a good price, because, you know, somebody’s business was going out and 2020 has been the biggest increase for Banksy. It’s been 50% month-on-month increase. I bought it in June, sold it well, haven’t sold it, but it’s been auctioned at TAPE for 104% more. So I went out by 104% in three months, which is fab because you know, we know that the Banksy sort of 2020 sort of you know figures are very good at the moment.
Dr James:
So you’ve got more strings to it both than just an artist, he’s a businessman as well.
Annika:
He’s a businessman for sure.
Dr James:
He really is a businessman who is Banksy? That’s my next question. Well, are you at liberty to say.
Annika:
No, I mean I don’t know who Banksy is, but I do know a lot of people that do know who Banksy is and it’s quite interesting because, yeah, he’s sort of in his mid to late 40s, he’s in sort of high-end social circles, shall we say. So when he says he doesn’t, he’s a bit like Richard Hamilton. He doesn’t believe in the consumerism and the you know the cost of art. He’s a first person to give his artwork to his peers in his social circle. So it’s very interesting how it’s all filtered through to us.
Dr James:
Imagine how much this podcast would blow up if Banksy’s identity was revealed on it. But I’m not going to press you for it, annika. I’m not going to press you for it. I hope you’re prepared for a deluge of PMs from people from my group asking who Banksy is. Well, I hope they don’t do that too much. I hope they don’t do that too much.
Annika:
I don’t know who he is. We’re romanticising about who he is. I mean, we couldn’t you know?
Dr James:
I’ve actually read his Wikipedia article and on the Wikipedia article it says that there’s a I can’t remember the name of the guy, but it says that there’s a strong suspicion and a lot of evidence to point to this one particular individual, who hasn’t outright denied that he is Banksy.
Annika:
He’s not a singer from Pulp. That’s where you’re going down.
Dr James:
Oh, I can’t. I do you know what? I can’t even remember the first detail about it. I just remember that I read on Wikipedia that in certain circles it’s quite well established who he is. I suppose you can only really stay mysterious for too long, really, before people come looking for you. I mean, when you’ve reached the level of fame that he has, it must be very difficult.
Annika:
To be fair, he does go in and out of some of the galleries and he does. You know there are people that do know who he is within the art sector because obviously you know, they know when he’s coming in. Coming in, for example, there are a few emerging artists that are friends with him, that sort of ride his coattails and say, oh, I’m besties with Banksy and yeah, let’s just. You know there are quite a few of those as well. So you know, a lot of people do know who he is.
Dr James:
I’m surprised that it hasn’t been revealed publicly, then, because it’s still not common knowledge who the guy is, and it sounds like, from what you’re saying, that in certain circles it’s it’s you know. It’s not really a secret. Yeah, it’s not really a secret. That’s an interesting one that I wonder why. I wonder why We’ve covered art. We’ve covered art in a lot of detail. We’ve covered your journey into art. We’ve covered why you think that it’s a good part of an investment portfolio. If there’s anybody listening to this and they were wondering to themselves wow, how do I begin my journey into art? Why would you advise them to do so? Real quick, guys. I’ve put together a special report for Dentist entitled the Seven Costs and Potentially Disasters Mistakes the Dentist may whenever it comes to their finances. Most of the time, dentist are going through these issues and they don’t even necessarily realise that they’re happening until they have their eyes opened, and that is the purpose of this report. You can go ahead and receive your free report by heading on over to wwwDentistInvestcom forward slash podcast report or, alternatively, you can download it using the link in the description. This report details the seven most common issues. However, most importantly, it also shows you how to fix them Really. Looking forwards to hearing your thoughts.
Annika:
I would say find yourself a broker that you know that it’s quite hard to just find one, but I’ve had about three different brokers and you’ve got to choose someone that you will end up trusting. Because the problem is somebody can say buy this piece, it’s a great piece, but without it’s subjective, the valuation could change and you don’t know whether everybody’s making money out of everything. So you’ve just got to be mindful. I would say do a lot of research, go on something called ArtNet, look at past option results and then contact PM James or me or whoever to say do you think this is the right thing to do? Do you know this person? Would they potentially steer in the right direction? Because you just don’t want somebody who’s just going to sell you something and it’s never going to go up in value and they’ve just sort of pocketed the commission. You need to be very, very careful about that.
Dr James:
So you need to find a trustworthy broker, and that’s the best first step.
Annika:
Yes, for sure.
Dr James:
Brilliant, fair enough. I understand that you as well help people in that process. Is that correct, Anika?
Annika:
I’ve had a few people ask me in terms of where can I source things, where can I look for things? But to be honest, within the sector we’re in, you have to be decisive. With art and a lot of people are sort of a little bit let me get a bit of information. But nobody really goes full on and say no, I’m going to put my money into this. It goes back into stocks and shares, essentially. I see, yes, it’s an interesting one, people do want to know, but they just don’t understand enough. So I would say get a professional broker.
Dr James:
Bit of a learning curve then, by the side of it, yes, we’ve heard your sort of case for getting a broker as well. If there was someone out there who wanted to educate themselves, maybe just generally on art, to know what to look for, to know what makes a good piece, this, that and the other You’ve mentioned artnetcom, I believe- yes, that’s all the latest auction results.
Annika:
You would believe yes. So I’m quite a funny girl in a clinic where I sort of have my notes open on one tab and the next tab is all the auction results. So between patients I’m sitting there going, oh wonder what’s going on. I follow Philips quite a lot. Philips auctions they’re quite good. They’re good because I actually sit on a lot of their auction. Well, not loads, because they do them over at the J, but when I have a bit of time I sort of sit there and the auction. The way they auction things, I’ve sort of noticed that they sort of the ladies call out the number and then they sort of it’s just always increasing because they’re saying the number before. So yeah, okay, yeah, let’s go.
Dr James:
Yeah, you’re just like okay, great, this is fab. Yeah, so like bang bang, bang yeah exactly so.
Annika:
It’s very interesting, you know. Look on Instagram, look for material, look at archives, look, you know, research stories, research a little bit about artists that you might be interested in. Don’t just sort of go for anyone, essentially because you could just go for somebody who’s hyped today, but actually their art’s not fantastic and would you have it on your mantelpiece? Would you have it above your fire? Just choose art pieces that you love. Never choose art pieces that just are going to hang in storage. Basically.
Dr James:
Would you say on occasion there’s a bit of a conflict of interest between the brokers and the people who want to invest in art, from the point of view that the brokers are just trying to move these pieces along as quick as they can and they’re maybe given a lot more airtime or hype to individuals who they are not that established and they’ll go on today and go on tomorrow. Is that a prominent thing that happens? Would you say that that’s very much rare or would you say that that’s fairly common place?
Annika:
It’s fairly common. You need to be super headstrong. Yeah, the amount you know. I get phone calls daily from different people do you want to auction this? Do you want to do this? We’ve seen on the system. You’ve got this piece, we sell it. You know they, just everyone. You know everyone needs to work essentially. So you’ve got to be mindful of that. But you should never be forced into something. You should never be sort of Again, it’s sales, isn’t it really? You know so a broker works to help you, but again, if they’re great at sales, then they could tell you anything. If you haven’t got a great insight into who that is or what’s going on, I’ll give you an example. I’ve bought into an. So my portfolio is, you know, a bit of blue chip, a bit of sort of established artists, because there’s room to kind of maneuver within them. You know people that are still alive and you know a couple of emerging, because I’m gonna hold onto it for a longer period of time. And there was an emerging artist I’m not gonna say her name because obviously it’s. I don’t wanna criticise her too much, but yeah, there’s so much hype about her. She was on every single tube thing. Every time you tapped in. She was all over the place. You know this kind of thing. So I said to the gallery do you know what you know? How much is you know emerging is could be a couple of hundred pounds. She was 11,000 pounds for an emerging artist. Okay. So I said you know well, it could be, it could not be, because this is only we don’t know. It’s not 20 years later. So I said you know what? That’s fair? I lent well, fair at the time because I was a bit sold on it and I guess I was a bit more naive. So I said definitely, you know, I’ll go for one of her pieces. I actually went for two of her pieces, to be fair, and I the only reason I went for her pieces is because I bought it before it actually ended catalog. So the catalog price would be 4, 5,000 pounds more essentially. So I sort of said I’ll get it before it’s even there’s even a number or a picture taken and let’s go from there. But now I’m still holding onto these pieces, thinking when is she gonna bring out some more work so I can look at auction results or look at where she’s going? And I can’t see where she’s going. But for that month she was everywhere, on every billboard, every, everything. So you know there’s a bit of actually was on IU because I was kind of bought, you know, bought into something on the basis of the gallery and the broker. But actually if I do wait another 10 years or so, could I’ve doubled my money Because that’s what they say. They say every five years from emerging artists. You should be doubling your money if, depending on what they’re bringing out.
Dr James:
So certain amount of savieness required then.
Annika:
Yeah.
Dr James:
And, what I gather, are you able to assist anybody interested in any way in doing that? Can you put them in contact with someone who’s a bit more reputable?
Annika:
Yeah, I can definitely do that. I definitely have a trustworthy broker that I use that sort of external from the gallery that I actually buy from, and I’m happy to do that or even guide you to what you know, what’s current, what’s not, give you a bit of extra information if you’re interested.
Dr James:
Smashing great stuff. Well, I find that really interesting because certainly I didn’t really know the first thing about art. From what Annika has described, I can actually see the parallels between it and other investing a lot more now, certainly when you were talking about the bigger, more established blue chip pieces and the higher risk involved with less established artists that potentially have more volatility. So to me, it makes complete sense from that point of view. Just like anything or any sort of asset, you really need to know what you’re doing before you get into it, and I would hit anybody out there to fall victim to some sort of fraudulent, supposedly up and coming artist, ploy a lot of money in and, you know, lose out for whatever reason. I think that that’s probably the cliched way you can get caught out in art, and it’s probably necessary to have someone to guide you a little bit, just as Annika says. Annika, I think we’re gonna wrap up now. Is there anything else that you’d like to say on top of what we’ve already discussed?
Annika:
No, it’s been very interesting really because you know your other podcast show. A lot of you know variation in terms of trading, so I’m actually quite excited to sort of flip over to my left brain and see what else is out there.
Dr James:
Oh yeah, I think there’s a lot of content to get through. Do you know what? At the very start I thought to myself, james, how long can you flog this horse, for? There’s only gonna be so many assets we can talk about it and then we’re gonna run out. But then I started thinking and I was like, actually no, we can do whiskey, we can do classic cars, we can do watches, we can do whatever. There’s all these things we can even do. People collect toys, classic toys from certain eras, and they appreciate in value. There’s so many things that we could flesh out. So I’m not so nervous about that anymore Now that I’ve had some time to ponder it. There really is so much content there, so I don’t believe it should be an issue. And, like I say, we’ve all heard about stocks, we’ve all heard about gold. They’re the classic things that investors tend to go for, and I think it’s just really interesting to hear from these other sides of the coin just things that we wouldn’t necessarily initially associate with the word invest, and so it’s been super interesting. Thank you so much for coming on the show. No thanks.
Annika:
Thanks to you, it’s been a great Sunday. No worries, no worries.
Dr James:
Well, thank you so much, as I say Very nice to meet you. This is the first time we’ve ever met, of course, no, no, we’ll be up to smash in day and I’ll let you get off now. I’m sure you’ve got better things to do than be on my podcast.
Annika:
Oh, no, not at all have a good day, sir. In a bit Hannah girl speak soon. Bye.